Chapter 9 - Police and Law Enforcement

Defenders share their views on the police and law enforcement.

How do you feel about police in general? How do you feel about the NYPD specifically?

Police in General Defenders’ views of police in general are uniformly negative. Expressions of displeasure range from measured responses to responses evincing a complete lack of respect. One Defender states: “I guess the best sentiment is: ‘Fuck the police.’” Another Defender answers this question with one word: “Pigs.” Another Defender states: “I think the word ‘detest’ is about as honest as I can get. And you know what, I’ll be honest with you, I don’t like that, because I do try to be a rational person who thinks, not all cops, not all this, not all that, you know? But show me one that’s not—I mean, I’m waiting to see one that I can actually speak positively of—because in some way, shape or form, even if they’re not the ones doing something really wild and crazy, then they’re justifying it. And I’m just like, get out of my face; I can’t with you…. I don’t care for cops whatsoever. It is a detraction in how I view them. If I know you’re a cop, I’m like ohh….”

Defenders distrust the police both based on their personal experiences with the police and their observations of police behavior. One Defender explains: “For a long time honestly, I had a lot of anger towards the police. Much of it stemmed from me getting stopped by the police.” Another Defender notes: “I've seen the police involved in my personal life at a very young age. I've never been arrested, but I've been stopped without a reason several times. I've seen them countless times do illegal things. So when people say 99% of the officers are good and only 1% that's giving them a bad name, I don't buy that. I know I haven't dealt with all of the officers and sure, all of the ones that I've dealt with would represent less than 1% of all the officers out there. But you just see so many other officers just kind of standing by and not stopping them. I'm not talking about officers who are on their level; I'm talking about top brass, I'm talking about sergeants and lieutenants who just fall over and twist themselves in a pretzel to see it from the officer's perspective. There is just a lot of very racist, bad, illegal behavior on the part of police officers….”

Some Defenders started off viewing the police favorably before observing and experiencing interactions that turned them around. One Defender answers: “I'm laughing now because when I was probably like around 13, like a lot of kids around that age, I wanted to be a cop. I thought they did good, and I’d watch all these silly TV shows about what they are, the role they play, the crime fighting and the bad guys and all that. And then I and others I know got stopped several times over the years.” Another Defender shares this perspective:

Because I [wasn’t born] in this country, I came to this country with a very different idea about police. Like, I wasn't scared of police. [Where I was], police officers coached our soccer teams. I was always taught, “If something goes wrong, or if you get lost, or whatever, go find a police officer.” That was always what my parents told me. Police officers didn't have guns [in places outside the U.S.] ….

Now, I feel really different about it. I see it in the way that I raise my child. My child is not allowed to play cops and robbers or any games that involve having people in jail. I would never tell [my child to] go find a police officer for help. So this is a long way of saying that I now feel very distrustful of the police. I feel scared, actually, of the police. And I think as a result of doing this job, I feel so angry. I feel angry and disgusted probably more than I need to be, maybe; I don't know. But I feel a lot of anger towards the police.

Even Defenders who have family members in law enforcement express concerns about police behavior. One Defender expounds: “I have retired family members that were on the force for years and years. And obviously the force is different now than it was 10, 20 years ago, but a lot of it is the same. A lot of things that they tell me about the job is terrible. Even the male cops in my family had this, like, machismo; they had this, this, this…what do I even call it? Just like this air of superiority, like they like to flex their power; and I could see that in them, even with them being retired. I see it in the way they talk about ‘perps’ or the way they talk about ‘mutts.’” Another Defender states: “I have more often than not seen officers do a lot of shady things just to get an arrest, or just to secure some sort of conviction or because they have history with the person that happens to be my client, like if this is the same officer that's repeatedly arresting my client.”

Defenders across the board agree that policing in America is both historically and contemporarily racist. One Defender touches on the history of policing, noting how “it was originally formed to catch runaway slaves. That's where all of this stuff came from; that's where it stemmed from. And if you promote certain people of a certain mindset, and they reach back and pull up people who mirror that mindset, but then they say, ‘You can't be racist anymore,’ then, it’s like, okay, we won't be racist anymore, but we know what's really going on. And that's the paradigm….” Another Defender agrees: “It's just an institution that is racist at its core. It started from that. It is corrupt, and it's just gotten more racist and corrupt over time.” Answers another Defender: “At no point were police created to help Black people; and I think that that is just indicative in every single way that they move. Everything that is done is done with the intent of controlling Black people and making sure to promote white supremacy and corporations long-term.” One Defender gives this answer:

That they're biased. They have preconceived perceptions of our clients and of Black people in general, and they act on that. And it's interesting, the dynamics of Black police officers as well: they’re in some ways made to choose between whether they're Black or they're blue. But I also feel like if they're walking—and you see this—if they're walking without their uniform, and they're either in another precinct or whatever, they're treated just like any other Black man walking through that precinct. And it's interesting that some of them don't see that irony.

Some Defenders, particularly those that come from law enforcement families, have slightly kinder responses. One Defender states: “I think that they do more harm than good.” Another Defender answers: “I won't say that all cops lie because sometimes they don't have a reason to lie. Sometimes it happened exactly the way that they say it happened. I get that too, but certainly they're looking out for their own asses more than our clients. And when they do something inappropriate, I don't think that there's much discipline. So I don't think that there's much of a deterrent for them doing inappropriate or even illegal things to our clients.” Another Defender says: “I think it's so funny, because I go back to Chris Rock’s standup that he did when he was talking about the bad apples, right? I think there's a lot of police officers that are good and there are a lot of them that are bad. I don't feel like it's like a couple of bad apples. I think there's an even split among the good and the bad.” Adds another Defender: “I think police are needed, but I do think that there needs to be reform. There needs to be training. There needs to be a change in the way that policing is happening.” Another Defender states: “I don't like the police for obvious reasons, but we need police. We need police; but I don't like what the police do, if that makes any sense.”

Many other Defenders are far less accommodating. One Defender states: “Not a fan. I'm for defunding the police. It's an institution that needs to be completely broken down. Its origins are racist, the execution is racist. I don't have confidence in it. I don't trust it. I think it's an abusive institution.” Another Defender concurs: “I don't fuck with them. I am not a police fan. I believe there's no such thing as a good police officer, because I believe their function is to further white supremacy and capitalism. So I do not believe you have good police. I can admit [that] not every police officer is out here killing Black people and being all that kind of stuff for sure. But as they say with that blue line, they may not be the ones personally doing it, but they also look away when their colleagues are doing it. So I don't think you can claim to be a good police officer with that…. If you're a good officer, they find a way to get rid of you; or you quit. So I don't think there's such thing as good police.” Another Defender adds: “I generally do not trust the police personally and professionally.”

Several Defenders express fear of the police. One Defender states: “I'm afraid of the police. In general, I'm scared of them. I don't trust them. I think that they are dishonest. I think they pick on or target young men, especially young Black men. I think they're used to keep Black and Brown communities in their place. That is not to say that when I'm walking down the street at night and I see a police officer, I don't feel safer or calmer. Sometimes their presence can be okay; but in general, I don't like the police and I raise my children to behave in a way that they minimize their police contact. Sometimes you can't help it; but don't do anything that encourages police contact.” Another Defender shares similar sentiments: “When I see them, I'll go the other way. I get scared. And I haven't had any personal interactions; I've never been arrested or anything like that. But I just don't see them as people who can help me. I would be afraid that they would kill me, or they would try to put a case on me, or they would just not treat me well in an interaction.”

A few more responses:

Defender I think that they are a part of the oppressive system. They are what starts the chain reaction in an oppressive system. They are literally the symbol of oppression, because they are what starts everything. Everything starts with an arrest. So if you have an overpoliced community, clearly there's going to be more arrests there. If you have a less-policed community, which are oftentimes white communities, there will be less arrests. So they are the textbook example of oppression.

They have way too much money and way too much power. They don't get disciplined enough for wrongdoing. And whenever you say something bad about them, they're like a spoiled child that had so many opportunities, and they just pout and then they decide to not do their job. So there's a very, very serious problem with the police in this country….

Defender They do what society wants. Sometimes that might not match up exactly how society wants them to do their job, but they do the job that society, the powers that be, want.

Defender I do not like police officers or policing. I think there's a lot of creepy mythology around police and policing. Police officers exist to protect the property and interests of the wealthy, not to protect all people or serve them or promote true justice.

The police justify their employment and their actions by pointing to extreme, isolated cases without recognizing that the vast majority of what they spend their time doing aren’t [investigating] super intense homicides or whatever…. People talk about the “good cop.” I don't even see how it's possible to be a good cop, because it's a culture that requires absolute obedience to that myth, and loyalty to all of these different authority structures. The rare cops who stand up to the injustice in their employment are ostracized and forced out.

Defender I have young Black teenage boys in my family, and I talk to them trying to get them up to scratch, to be thinkers, so that when they gets older, they understand sort of what they are up against. And you [might] think “I have a daughter, so maybe it won't be as bad.” But then I think about Sandra Bland. I think about Breonna Taylor. And I think it doesn't really matter; like your number could be called just because of who you are and how you were born and the circumstances of it.

I was talking to you about it the other day, when the Milwaukee Bucks protested and didn't play.¹ One of the [hosts of the show I was watching]—I can't remember her name—was a woman who said her father was an FBI agent; and she told the panel that her dad told her younger brother, “If you ever get stopped, comply or die.” Comply or die. And it makes you—I'm getting goosebumps right now—it makes your eyes water a bit, when you think about that. We're sitting here having this intelligent conversation and we're delving into the systemic problems as we see them from the perspective of being Black men who are public defenders, and we can get into the nuances, etcetera, etcetera. But for your experience as a Black man to be reduced to that sort of sad but real rhyme—comply or die—it just sums everything up….

Defender In my experience as being somebody who was looking for the police to investigate or make an arrest, [they were awful]. This happened to me with somebody who was very, very close to me, a family member that was my nephew…. He was murdered when I was in my first year of law school. And this was a very interesting time for me because I was trying to figure out what my space in the movement was going to be, whether it was going to be a defense lawyer, whether it was going to be a community activist, or whether it was going to be some new space that I created for myself, or some conflation of all of those things….

So it was an interesting time for my family to be working with the DA's office and getting a bird's eye view of what happens when you are the victim. And I found myself thinking: the way that this system is created, this young man that has committed this horrible atrocity against my family, he has taken something that we all love and adore.

And usually when something happens to you, you rely on your family and friends to sort of move you through. But when your family and friends are just as hurt, just as broken down, just as torn apart, it's a very lonely space. So I certainly wasn't prepared to have that conversation with them then; but there was this idea that, from the police and the arrest, as it moved all the way through to trial—and the guy was actually acquitted—was this understanding that nothing that this system was designed to do from the police all the way up was ever going to be able to stop him from doing this again. I was in my first year of law school, taking notes, sitting in the front row, shoulder to shoulder with other attorneys; but I was in a precarious space because it was my family that was victimized. The “People” were representing us in that space; and none of it felt good to me from the cops on up, as terrible as I felt about losing my loved one.

So I don't believe that the police can assist in the way that we believe they should. I don't believe that that's impossible, but I just don't believe this current institution that they inhabit can ever do that.

The NYPD Defenders’ answers to these questions are arguably more negative, with a similar range of responses. One Defender answers this question with two words: “Racist pigs.” Another Defender replies this way: “Given my experiences with the police, the same way a Holocaust survivor would feel about a Nazi German soldier. They are the most powerful, the most militarized, most violent, most vicious gang in the city. They’re a bunch of thugs.” Another Defender states: “I have no respect for the NYPD. I find them to be illegitimate in terms of what their role is alleged to be in society and alleged to be for this city. I find them to be perpetuators of violence and destruction within poor Black and Brown communities. I don't trust them.” Adds another Defender: “It’s a racist organization. I don't trust the police. Do I think it's every police officer? No, but I think that doesn't really matter.”

Some Defenders see the NYPD as a gang. One Defender states: “If I'm speaking very candidly, I feel that it is just a government-sanctioned gang in a lot of ways….” Another Defender concurs: “I think that it is the biggest, well-funded gang that probably has ever been established in history. When I say ‘gang’, I don't mean just gangs as we think about it traditionally; I also mean like organized crime, including mobs, the mafia, things like that.” Adds another Defender: “The NYPD specifically are a gang, quite frankly. Everything that I know about gang behavior and gang relationships, and the idea of gangs, is not something that comes from the definition of Crips or Bloods or Bronx Money Getters or whatever the subsets are. It's the police. The police, the NYPD, are the perfect definition of a gang for me, from uniform and colors to everything else.”

Other Defenders are a little kinder. One Defender states: “They have a job to do. I'm not sure what their job is to do, and I don't know if they know what their job is to do. And I think with the lack of clarity, we end up with what we end up with: arrests being made that should not be made…. Then sometimes I see stuff where it's just like, yeah, it seems like somebody should be arrested here, and they don't get arrested. So I just feel as if there's not enough clarity, at least from the outside looking in; and I think that creates problems.” Another Defender answers: “Fairly negative. I've seen some really problematic behavior. In recent years, I've worked with their leadership around police reform and the Floyd case²; and I've seen a pretty significant commitment to business as usual and to not confronting some of the problems, including the very blatant racism that exists within the force and that often motivates the policy there.” Another Defender remarks: “I think some of them actually go in there with the mindset that they're going to help. I don't know what happens when they get in there, but that doesn't last long.” One Defender shares this experience and perspective:

I remember years before becoming a public defender, I was an assistant director in this adult center where we taught literacy. We taught English literacy and Spanish literacy; we taught a lot of things to adults. One of the teachers was this kind of young guy; he must have been in his 20s, late 20s maybe. He was a great guy. People that came to our classes loved him; he really taught well. So he came up to me one day and says, “Man, I’m going to apply to be a policeman.” I said, “Are you serious?” He looked at me and said, “Yeah, yeah. I think I could do something good.” I said, “Okay, sit down. I'm going to tell you something. You're going to go into the police, and you're going to have your ideas. But you're going to change those ideas, because you're going to feel that that's the only way that you're going to survive in a militarized organization, the only way that you're going to be able to get along in that organization. That’s one; and two, you're going to start doing things outside of that organization that you would never have thought of as a teacher.” He pushed back: “No, I’ll be different, because I'm going to really do some good.”

So he went in, and I saw him like a month or two later after training. They had assigned him to the Bronx, and he was from the Bronx. And he came to my house and we talked; he started talking, and he was talking a different way. So I said, “Where does that come from?” And he responded, “Well you know, you have to be realistic about what you're confronting; and these people have no respect—” I said, “These people have no respect? You didn't have a problem living in the Bronx with these people before; and you’re the same man. You put on this blue uniform and you changed, didn’t you?” He looked at me and said, “You're right. You're right.” We didn’t have much contact after that.

This is what happens to people in the police department. It’s very difficult; and I really applaud the groups that have gotten together within the police department to try to fight the racism. I applaud those efforts, because there are people that are trying to do that, and they're dealing with consequences to that and are treated poorly. So you gotta give them credit, because for an organization like that, to do it from within, they are taking risks on their careers and how much they get promoted on that. So you gotta give them credit, you know?

But I don't give credit to those of color or otherwise who, when they see people being shot in the street by police, don't denounce that and feel that somehow that could never happen to them. But we've seen instances of undercover officers being shot by their own; they weren't doing anything wrong, but they looked like the people they’re always following, right?

Other Defender responses:

Defender Military establishment. I don't like the way it functions; I don't like the way it executes its role, its powers particularly over the working class and communities of color. I don't agree with it, and I don't believe that it is just an individual thing. I believe that the organization in terms of the ethics it teaches, the perspective of the people that they're going to be dealing with, what it teaches and the skills it teaches to deal with it is all a matter of control. It's a matter of controlling our communities; it's a matter of dictating to our communities what they feel is the proper way of behaving or acting…. Their role is to protect property as far as I'm concerned; they're not protecting human beings. They're protecting the property of people with wealth. Because you don't see police mistreating people on Park Avenue in Manhattan. People on Fifth Avenue don't get treated in the same fashion. And I think that that's why there's such an incredible distrust of police. In the different working-class communities and communities of color, people know that the police are not people that are going to look at them or believe anything they say.

For the most part, a lot of times people feel helpless. And so it was great to have organizations, particularly organizations in the 1960s, the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, organizations of that type that showed different working-class communities and communities of color that they can confront this. They didn’t have to take police abuse. They were groups of people who were standing up to the police. For us, that was like, whoa! We had examples of people standing up to the police, saying “No, you can’t do this to me,” and doing it proudly, standing up erect, not cowering.

That was amazing; and it was so painful to see so many Panthers killed. It was so painful to see the way the FBI infiltrated them. But it went to show how powerful they became in our communities. That was a reflection of how powerful they were. And that alone helped to give rise to so many other organizations and so many other community efforts to fight back the abuse of the police. So no, I don't have a lot of faith in the police….

Defender The fact that they're unionized, [and] the fact that their union is so strong and so powerful, puts them in a position where they behave with impunity because they can get away with everything. My [spouse] is from South Carolina. Obviously yes, South Carolina is full of problems; but police in South Carolina are not like the NYPD, because police in South Carolina go to jail and get fired and have consequences when they behave in certain ways. That does not happen in New York. People think that New York's so liberal, but it really is a police state. It's such a police state. Our police force is so large. They're so powerful. There are no consequences. And they're so outspoken in their ridiculousness. They just have so much political power, I guess. I do think that they're situated differently from other police forces.

Defender I want to use more nuanced words than horrible, but it's horrible. I mean, it's not even just through my job that I experienced it. Just as a civilian, I personally filed maybe two or three civilian review complaints. Not about things that happened to me, things that I saw on the street….

Years ago, I was in Queens. I used to do martial arts. I was leaving that one day and I was walking down the street. I saw an unmarked car pull up on these two kids. They must have been somewhere between 17 and like 20. The cops jumped out of the car, walked up to these two kids, and just started patting them down. They took off the kids’ baseball caps, looked in them, and went in their pockets. One had a little pack of cigarettes in his shirt pocket. They took it, they opened up the cigarette pack, looked in it.

I was walking towards them when they first jumped out, so at some point I just stopped. I made sure I was about 20 or so feet from them. I just stopped. It's like the middle of the day; it was on Queens Boulevard. It was a busy street…. So I stopped and I just watched; and I was just like, okay, I'm going to wait till they're gone because I don't want to interact with these kids while they're there, because the [cops will] start wilding out or will take it to another level. When they leave, I will ask the kids [about it and will] try and encourage them to file a report, and I'll file a report with them.

As I was standing there—I was standing next to a meter—one of them looked at me and says, “Do you know them?” I said, “No.” They said, “Well, can I help you?” I said, “No, I'm just watching.” They said, “Oh, you're just watching, are you? You're just watching.” And I didn't answer. And then they were done. They didn't fill out the required stop and frisk report, which I knew they were supposed to do. They were just going to hop back in their car. So as they were walking back to the car, I said, “Can I get your name please? Can we get your name?” They just hopped in the car and didn't say anything. When they drove off, I got the first three or four letters of the license plate memorized and somehow wrote it down.

Then I talked to the kids. They were like, “We were literally just walking down the street.” I asked, “What did they say to you?” They were like, “They just said ‘stop’ and ‘What's your name?’ and then they took off.” So I got the kids’ numbers, went home, and filed a complaint online…. It was one of the most frustrating experiences of my life. I don't think they contacted me for a long time. It was definitely months. I had to come down to their office to do the interview [in downtown Manhattan. Mind you, I tried to follow through with the kids.] I spoke to one; I don't think I ever got ahold of one of them, but the other one I definitely did. I kind of knew they weren't really [inclined to fight it]. I mean, they were kids, so they were like, yeah, it was wrong. But you could see there wasn't going to be a lot of follow through. It's par for the course….

So when I got down there for my interview, they were like, “Oh, the other two kids, they dropped their complaint; and we can't tell you why because it's confidential.” And I said, “Well, I talked to one of them and I know they wanted to follow through,” and they said, “Well, we're not allowed to tell you.” I responded, “Well, they live in Queens. [He probably did not follow through because he would have] had to come all the way from Queens to Vector Street somewhere in downtown Manhattan.” [So their complaints went nowhere.]

I then said, “Well, it shouldn't really matter. I mean, you're investigating something officers did wrong. Why they have control over if it goes any further or not, I don't know. It's wrongdoing on the police officer's part; you should follow through on that.” So we went on with my interview. Then [they gave me a choice]: [I] can either have a meeting and confront the officers and ask them why they did that, but there would be no referral to whatever the internal disciplinary system is at the NYPD; or I could have it referred for internal discipline, and should they conclude [ the charge is] founded, then I don't get the meeting with them. I said, “Well, I want to think about that.”

Then I heard from them nine months later. Approximately nine months after the initial incident, I got a phone call from the investigator who wanted to know if I could come down and look at a photo array. I said, “Are you kidding me? Are you serious? That was nine months ago. You think I remember what they look like? This is a joke.” And they're like, “Well, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.” I said, “Who was driving the car that day at that time? That's who did it! Did you find the cops who was assigned to that car on that date at that time? Those are the officers that are involved!”

I was so angry. It was a joke. It wasn't serious. I don't know how many cases were deemed unfounded because of stuff like that, but I'm sure many are.

Defender I think they're pretty much all the same; but I think the interesting piece is that New York City has this reputation of being super liberal and forward thinking. Looking at the NYPD, it's just a very clear show of how that is [not true]. I don't see them as any different from police officers in Georgia or in Texas. They still do the same racist crap, consistently.

I had a police officer testify in one case and literally say, “I saw a Black man running, so I thought he had a gun.” He didn’t bat an eye. Myself, [my co-counsel for the trial], and even the client said, “How in the world did that actually get said? Is that literally what he said?!” And I think it just goes to show that that is what it is. You see a Black person there, [so that Black person must] have a gun. That's how they react. That's how they're trained. They'll usually use coded language; but it's the same.

You'll have police officers who will lie consistently. I had a police officer who, mid-trial, texted the prosecutor saying, “No, this is actually the question that you were supposed to ask me.” So we were in the middle of a trial—I forget if it was a trial or a hearing; I think it was a bench trial—and the officer is giving testimony. The prosecutor is trying to get in a certain piece of evidence admitted. Mind you, this whole case had a lot as far as unethical prosecutor behavior. They're trying to get in some evidence; but they're prosecutors in [this particular borough], so by their very nature, they're incompetent and don't understand how to insert a simple piece of evidence.

So the judge is like, “This is awful. I'm going to give you a five-minute recess. Get the witness off the stand, talk amongst yourselves, talk to a supervisor, figure out what you all are going to do and how you all are going to proceed, because this is awful.” So the police officer is excused, and then the police officer who was on the stand sends a text message to the prosecutor—there are clear warnings [when a witness is on the stand]: do not speak to anybody about the case you are giving testimony in; do not speak to anyone about your testimony—saying, “No, this is the question that you have to ask me.”

I don't see them as any different than any other police organization. I really don't. It's just more the same.

Defender Don't care for them. Let me say this: I know not all police officers are bad. I try not to judge…. I feel like they are the only group of professionals who want to get kudos for doing their job, especially in the wake of all the stuff going on with the protests. They get upset when you criticize them; they get upset when you question them. And I’m talking about the bad [cops].

Guess what? There are 1,000,001 lawyer jokes, right? [Public defender offices have] a bad reputation amongst some of our clients. So guess what we do? I don't say, “Oh, woe is me. I'm a public defender. I'm going to hide who I am.” I know that public defender offices have a reputation, and I will try to be the best I can be. So I'm not going to say, “I can't show up to work,” because people don't like public defenders. Do your job.

But [with the NYPD], because of the protests—whether it be George Floyd or Ahmaud Arbery or Philando Castile or Alton Sterling or dozens of others—they’re like, “Okay, well, we’re going to do a showdown. Like everybody’s picking on us. Blue lives matter.” And I'm like, how do you want to get props for doing your job? Like, that's what you're supposed to do. That's why you get a paycheck. That's why you have a pension. Do you know what I mean?

Defender I think that the NYPD as it exists today is the result of so many decades of corruption, violence, over-policing, and racism. When you have an organization that has existed with all of those things for so long, what can they be but a broken police force?

They're incentivized by money and overtime. They are comprised of a lot of young guys—and young women, too—that want to get out in the streets and crack skulls, literally. It's an organization that will knowingly protect wrongdoers. It's a force that's improperly trained for most situations that they engage in. I would imagine that they have more firearms training than de-escalation training. They have to re-certify their firearm proficiency; I bet you they don't have to re-certify their de-escalation proficiency.

Are there good cops out there? I'm sure there are. Are there cops who are coming out of communities who see violence and shootings and drug dealing in front of buildings where moms are trying to walk their kids to school and want to do something about it; and they want moms to walk out their front door and feel safe that gunfire is not about to ring out? Look, I've seen video surveillance of shootings in broad daylight with kids in the street and stuff like that. So I can understand how somebody could grow up in that community and want to come back to their community and serve as a police officer, serve as someone who can actually try to protect and help with crime.

But they're joining a force that doesn't share those same values; and at some point, that good cop is going to be asked to look the other way. That good cop is going to be asked to sign off on something they should not sign off on; and they're going to do it because if they don't, they won't be able to be a cop anymore. So even good cops are going to do bad things.

So I feel that the NYPD has evolved into this monster of an organization that is more concerned with overtime funding and the public perception of the force than they are of anything else. And when they are the ones who are interacting with our clients, there's no other result then confrontation and combat, basically. They treat our clients like enemies of the state, like soldiers on the other side of a war. That can't be who keeps our streets and our communities safe.

FN 1: In protest of the police shooting of Jacob Blake in Kenosha, Wisconsin on August 23, 2020, the Milwaukee Bucks refused to play their playoff game against the Orlando Magic. Two other games were postponed, and a few MLB and WNBA teams also declined to play their scheduled games in protest. See Tom Goldman, ‘Tired Of The Killings’: Pro Athletes Refuse To Play To Protest Racial Injustice, NPR (Aug. 26, 2020, 10:30 PM), https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/08/26/906496470/a-dramatic-day-in-pro-sports-where-the-action-was-no-action.

FN 2: The stop-and-frisk case, Floyd v. City of New York, 959 F. Supp. 2d 540 (S.D.N.Y. 2013).

How do you feel about the police unions in New York City?

As negative as Defenders’ perceptions of police are, their impressions of police unions in New York City are even worse. One Defender states: “Oh, they're ridiculous. Ridiculous. They have no gauge in accountability for the actions of their officers, period. And honestly, I think that's the problem with a lot of unions….” Another Defender notes: “The police unions are disgusting. All they do is support all these bad police officers. And if you are going to be a union, I mean… I guess they're actually doing great. Like if you think about it in terms of how unions are supposed to work, then they do what they're supposed to do. They keep these bad police officers; they let them keep their jobs after they do fucked up shit, and they don't lose money. They get to be on paid vacation, and they have union people to protect them.” Adds another Defender: “Too much power. There’s too much power….” Another Defender states: “They are one of the prime reasons why a lot of the bullshit—let me be more articulate—why a lot of the nonsense continues in New York.”

A number of Defenders speak to the political power that unions have in New York City. One Defender states: “I think that they have entirely too much political power to influence policy; and the policies that they generally influence negatively impact the communities that I represent and, frankly, a lot of communities throughout New York.” Another Defender concurs: “I feel like they are so coercive to the legislature and to everybody; everybody bows down to the police unions. It's ridiculous. They really do run New York City. People act like that’s not what’s happening, but it clearly is. People are scared of some fake lawlessness that might occur if you actually check them and tell them, ‘No.’” Adds another Defender: “I think everyone's scared of the police unions. Mayors and other government actors are often beholden to the NYPD and to their union because they are such a powerful bloc. It just is like this manifestation of looking out for their own interest in protecting themselves as individuals as a primary goal, as opposed to protecting communities….” Adds another Defender: “Oh please…they’re so disgusting. I mean, get outta here; their job is always to antagonize and strongarm the state so that they can do whatever it is they want to do, so they can continue their racist policies. They’ve been indoctrinated into a culture of racism, and I don’t see how they can move beyond that.” One Defender gives this response:

They're terrifying. If there are things to be afraid of, it's shit like the police union. They're terrifying in the amount of power that they have. They're terrifying in the amount of influence that they have, just watching how they interact even with elected officials. Like, de Blasio³ was scared shitless of the police unions. The NYPD and the police unions are thugs in uniforms. They are truly the sincere forms of violent bullying. That's the police and the police unions. So when we think about the violence that's committed by NYPD in the streets, it's sanctioned by their unions, right? They're supported by their unions. And to see, like I said, the way they interact with elected officials who are supposed to be the advocates for communities, how terrified someone like de Blasio was of the unions. And it’s not just their power in terms of influence and the amount of money that they come with, but also in terms of being able to put forth really heavy campaigns. So just take, for instance, bail reform: the amount of money that they were able to put behind pushing for rollbacks up in Albany was insane.

But I'm convinced that de Blasio was actually in physical fear of the police unions. Remember the time they were showing up to his gym? Like it's funny, but it was a true intimidation tactic. Like, you can't go anywhere without one of us being here and you should feel fear, right? … It's physical intimidation to have them show up in spaces.

The most visible police union, the Police Benevolent Association (PBA), draws particular ire of Defenders. One Defender calls the PBA “a toxic, racist, homophobic, terrorist organization.” Another Defender describes the union with a reference from an old television show: “When I think of them, I don't know if you ever watched a seventies show called The Dukes of Hazzard. They remind me of Boss Hogg from The Dukes of Hazzard. Like I just see this big, blubbering, fat pig every time the police unions come on to a screen and talk their garbage, their racist garbage, their talking points that are Trumpian, just made-up garbage full of racist shit, inciting people into that mentality.” Another Defender feels as follows: “I think the PBA is an abomination…. When you look at the leadership and their approach to things, they're so thuggish with how they approach things; and when you look at their press conferences and their tactics, their media tactics, it's not surprising to me at all. And the funny part is, for the police of color within the union, there's got to be some level of cognitive dissonance or problems with reconciliation with the fact that there are these racist elements that you're working with, and your leadership is racist….” Another Defender has this to say:

Oh God, they are ridiculous. Ridiculous. In the first place, they are horribly racist. I can't see why any African American would be part of the police union. I think most of the African American cops aren't; and I don't blame them, because the union is ridiculous. You can't just give a blank check and say, “Whatever it is you do, I'm going to support you. You kill Eric Garner? I'm going to support that. That's fine. You choke him out? It's all good. I got your back.” No! Come on! It's almost like how I deal with my clients: I demand something out of them because I respect them. You have to demand something out of your union members. You have to demand that they do the right thing. You can't just support anything that they do; and that's what that ridiculous union does. I think it's outrageous.

Some Defenders specifically sound off on Pat Lynch, the former head of the PBA.⁴ One Defender states: “I understand they're a union, so they're protective of their members and that's the role that they're taking. But they can also be extremely aggressive, as Pat Lynch has shown many a times. He makes comments that are very racist, very inappropriate; and it's accepted. And he's covered by the media.” Adds another Defender: “Every time I see Pat Lynch, it's like everything he says is to advance ‘law and order,’ which, as we all know, has become some kind of racist code for continuing to brutalize and criminalize Black and Brown people. I am completely against everything that they stand for….”

Many Defenders comment on their union function and/or on unions generally in responding to this question. One Defender states: “I think they're there to protect their members like most unions. I think the larger union, that's what they're there for: to protect their members at all costs. To help get them out of police misconduct allegations and out of jams, and to lessen their fines and their sanctions, which in many times is a contradiction with doing what's actually right and what's safe for the public.” Another Defender remarks: “Oh, they're racist. Well, at least the leaders are racist as all hell. They damn near scream the n-word anytime they have a press conference…. That's another thing: unions are good, and they're also bad. I feel they protect the police way too much. They have too much power.” Another Defender states: “They protect the cops, and that's their one thing to do. That's what they do. Despite any and everything, despite what's alleged, despite what the cop is said to have committed or done, they just support their members at all costs.” Adds another Defender: “I think that the police unions are very powerful. I think that their aim is to protect their interest and the interests of police officers and the interest of the wealthy elite. Like many other unions, their allegiance are to those who they represent. They represent the corrupt NYPD, so they are corrupt.”

In sum, Defenders have issues with policing and considered the unions to be a major part of the problem. Remarks one Defender: “I think they’re a big part of the problem…. We know that unions are tasked with defending the worst of the worst at all costs, and defending people who deserve to lose their jobs. That’s their function. And because the police union, especially here in New York, is so incredibly powerful, they’re able to cover the tracks of some of the worst, most egregious offenders in the NYPD.” Some Defenders think police unions are illegitimate; others think they shouldn’t exist. One Defender opines: “They're gross, and they shouldn't have unions. Why do they need a union? I don't understand why they have them.” Another Defender, after rolling his/her eyes, answers this way: “The police force would be different without the police unions. So many of the issues that I just described with the NYPD wouldn't exist if the police unions didn't exist as they are. Listen, unions are great. They protect workers, they make sure that they're safe, they make sure that they're treated fairly, that they're compensated for the work that they do. That's what unions do. But when a police union is more concerned with keeping a cop on the job than holding [them accountable for] strangling someone to death, that's a problem. I don't care what good they've done before; that union has nullified their right to exist when their position is to protect cops who kill people.”

A few more responses:

Defender I don't know if you're familiar with this movie Gangs in New York. It's this movie that talks about New York in the late 18th century to early 19th century, so the late 1700s or so, when New York was really starting to thrive as a city that was concocted of immigrants of different factions. New York is very segregated to this day, but it shows you sort of the origins of that. There was the Italian conglomerate and the Irish conglomerate and people from different parts of Europe, living in New York and actually operating as gangs. There were workers and blue collar populations of people who came from these countries in Europe and were settling into neighborhoods comprised of people that came from where they came from.

It’s called Gangs of New York, because they were gangs, essentially. There was violence and killing and all of the like. I really find that movie interesting because it truly tells the story of what New York City is and what New York City has continued to be, which is a place that is comprised of different gangs of people. Unfortunately, because of the displacement and dispossession of Black folks, we don't have the ability to be a gang. We're just displaced in all of it.... But all of these other groups of people have had the benefit of white supremacy and the benefit of nepotism and all of those kinds of things; the fire department and the NYPD is very representational of that.

So I think the police union very much operates with the mentality that the NYPD is built on, which is that it's a gang, it's very insular, and that it’s one for all. I think that the police union is an extension of that. I think what's really interesting about the history of the police union and the police force and NYC is that traditionally it wasn't a place that was really made for Black people, like everything else. So I suspect, and I think it's been demonstrated by one or two Black police officers who've taken the city to task, that Black and Brown folks who join the police force—and of course the union by extension—just have to fall in with the program; and the program is: protect this group, this gang at all costs. The program is also subjugating Black people and Brown people to the extent that they do in New York; and the police union is the chief defender of that.

So I think that they're a bunch of thugs, long and short of it.

Defender They also have influence with judges because they endorse judges. If they make an arrest and the judge releases a person, they’ll go to the press and start saying all types of stuff about the judges. They have a little bit too much power.

Defender I don't know anything about them. All I can probably say is that they will unite to support the actions of their fellow officers. They will form a blue wall to protect one another. I don't think that they support or go against their fellow officer no matter what they do; but I really don't have a lot of information about them. I don't pay attention to them, but I know that when an officer is accused of a misdeed, they unite in favor of the officer.

What will also happen is that they will throw up a counterargument. “Okay, George Floyd was killed, but look at all the police officers that got killed!” It's like, we're going to mitigate this and we're going to change the subject. “Okay, maybe that was wrong, but look at all the Black people that have killed police officers!” Or they'll come up with something like that…. They're part of the problem.

Defender Oh, I think it's ridiculous. I read the statistic that the union is 90% white male, 90% Republicans who live in the suburbs, who don't even live in the five boroughs, and the force is [not 90% white]. So how can a union speak for the members if it's not representative of its membership? So that's really problematic for me. Then they came out endorsing Trump [in 2020]; and it's like, these Black cops ain't endorsing Trump. Like, stop. Did you ask them? Did you have a vote? Like, no, you're just one person who's the head of this union and is not representing your union members. So yeah, I have a problem with them.

Defender In New York, they have entirely too much power. They have entirely too much power. I feel like they're the only ones that can comment on a pending case. They're the only ones that will do whatever they want to do in terms of unbridled loyalty to police…. I thought unions exist to address unfair treatment with your employer, your supervisors, anything untoward in terms of promotions. That's the purpose of a union, right? But with these people, they're commenting on stuff that's pending, which is so interesting because if there's a police-involved shooting, they're always like, “Wait, don't rush to judgment, wait for the facts, blah blah blah blah blah.” But with police death, where they are the complainant, then all of a sudden it’s the KKK thing. So I think they have entirely too much power.

FN 3: Bill de Blasio was the mayor of New York City from 2013-2021.

FN 4: At the time most of the interviews were done, Lynch was the head of the PBA. He retired from the post in 2023.

Have you ever been mistreated by police?

Defenders have stories for days of being mistreated by the police. The men amongst the Defenders are more likely to have negative experiences than women. One female Defender answers: “No. My husband has as a Black man, and I've had to intervene; but me personally, no.” Nonetheless, many women report mistreatment. Some Defenders recall being sexually harassed. One Defender states: “I've been sexually harassed by NYPD officers multiple times, just living my life. I'm walking down the street and I've had them comment to me. It's disgusting, especially when they're in their uniform; and I’m like, y'all just think you can get away with everything. They're really gross.” Another Defender recalls: “I've been catcalled by police, which is disgusting. It's another level of disgusting because they have a weapon and they're making me feel super uncomfortable.”

Both men and women report being generally harassed by the police. One Defender states: “When I was younger, just walking from home and hanging out with my friends, we’d go to the Chinese restaurant; and they would always harass us and make us move away. They’re like, ‘You can't stand here,’ and it's like, why? We're buying food. We're just kids; what the hell? So those were my early interactions with police….” Another Defender remembers: “As a teenager, I've been stopped a bunch of times. I would drive my parents' vehicles and I would always get pulled over in my parents' vehicles. In retrospect, it was really because I was a Black kid driving a nice car. I get pulled over and they'd be like, ‘Whose car is this?’ I’d tell them it was my mom’s car, and then I’d have to show them my license, registration, and my address. I didn't really realize it back then….” Adds another Defender: “Yes, I have been mistreated by the police. More times that I can count…. I've had interactions with them as a young man, when I was of school age. Cops would stop us as groups of kids, trying to search us, hurling curses and insults at us just because maybe we might have been on the wrong side of the road…. They didn’t like that.”

A number of Defenders share particular experiences they had with the police:

Defender In my last year of law school, as a matter of fact, within the space of a month I was stopped three separate times in three separate states for absolute bullshit. The first one was when I went to law school [outside of New York], and I was walking on the street. A cop car pulled onto the sidewalk, blocked my path, and said, “Someone fitting your description has been burglarizing school buildings and stealing computers and other equipment inside there.” And foolishly—you would think a third-year law student would think of better things to say—my initial reaction was, “Well, what does the person look like?” I started talking to him, which is something you should just never do. Just keep your mouth shut, period. But I was so taken aback by the whole thing, that I asked, “What does this person look like?” They replied, “Well, it's a light-skinned Black male wearing sweatpants and a green army jacket,” which is what I had on….

So he actually took me to do a show up with this woman. (Author reacts) Oh yeah, yeah, it got ugly. It got serious. He actually took me to do a show up. The woman took a look at me and said, “No, it's not him.” So, luckily for me that turned out well, but that easily could have gone horribly wrong. And honestly, that stayed with me for years; I mean, I remember it to this day, and this is now [over two decades] after this this happened. I remember going back to my apartment after that, just being shaken by the whole thing….

The second time, I was driving around Brooklyn. At the time I had my car registered in [another state]. I was driving around and these cops are following me. I make a right turn, they make a right turn; I make a left turn, they make a left turn. Everywhere I go, I am being followed. So finally, I slowed down, because I was tired of the bullshit. So they stop me…and eventually they started questioning me because they thought the car was stolen; they “thought” I was driving around in a stolen car. So eventually I was really getting pissed off and I ask, “Why did you stop me? What's the reason you stopped me?” They say, “What, are you a lawyer?” So I show them my law school ID. They took a look at that and chuckled; they laughed at the whole thing. And then they were like, “Alright. You have a nice day.” And they left.

And then probably the worst of the three incidents happened in [a place outside of New York]. I had a good friend at the time, and I went to go see another friend of his. The three of us are walking on the street, and we got stopped by a bunch of narcotics cops and they were like, “There are reports of people fitting your description dealing drugs.” And they were digging their hands down our pants, down into my shoes. I mean, it was crazy. They kept us standing there around like 20 minutes before finally letting us go. They were nasty as fuck, very aggressive; it was like they were looking for a reason to start something with us. There were like eight or 10 of them; so even though there were three of us, they clearly would have been able to kick our asses if they wanted to do so.

These incidents, in conjunction with other things, really left a bad taste in my mouth about cops for a very long time.

Defender This happened when I was a third-year law student.... I came down for my birthday, and my best friend’s birthday is the day after mine, so we decided to go to Fright Fest, because I've never been there. So we went to Six Flags, we went to Fright Fest, so you know this is in New Jersey. By the time we got there, it was late and stuff. We got on one ride. We had waited so long to go into, like, a haunted house ride. We finally got out of there and then half of us said that they wanted to go to this specific ride and we were like, “Oh the line’s probably going to be long. Let's go on this one first because the line’s like really short. We could just ride it real quick.” They didn't want to, so they went ahead to the other ride.

We rode on the ride with the shorter line; and then after we were finished, we called them asking where they were. They had gotten on the line and were waiting to ride their ride, so we met them on the line and then we just waited on line with everybody else. We waited on line maybe like an hour; and then we finally got to the front. Right when we were next up to go, this white boy who was behind us—like right behind us, or two persons behind us—said “Excuse me,” went in front of us, and told the conductor of the ride that we skipped the line. The conductor said, “Yeah,” and told us to get off the line. Now mind you, our friends were already there. We met them and we still waited on line for a whole hour. It was not as if we came and met them when they were in the front…. And the whole thing was, they never even asked us for our side of the story. They just immediately told us we had to step off the line and we couldn't ride the ride because we cut the line. And I’m like, “Excuse me?!”

So there was these other Black women who were a little behind the white guy, and they were trying to explain, like, “No, they were waiting with their friends; they didn't cut the line.” But the conductor didn't want to hear anything. They just took his side of the story and went about their business. So, of course, we start making a fuss, because at this point we think it's racial. Like, they didn't even ask us what happened. All they said was, “He said that happened, so that it is what it is,” and told us to step off the line. We paid our money. We waited here for an hour. This was ridiculous.

So then the conductor’s like, “OK, we're gonna call security. We're gonna call the cops. You guys need to leave, because at this point you're trespassing.” And I'm like, wow, this sounds familiar. They ended up calling security and the police. So security and police officers were there, and we were trying to explain ourselves. Obviously, we were upset. They were not trying to listen to us either. They slammed my friend’s cousin against a wooden fence. They pinned her against a wooden fence, and her feet were dangling off the floor. So I pull out my phone and start recording; and there's a cop who started flashing his flashlight. He has it on strobe, so it's just flashing; and he's pointing it directly at my phone so that I can't film anything. So my sister-in-law is spazzing out also. She’s like, “You can't do that! You don't know if anybody has epilepsy (she was an LPN at the time). You don't know if anybody has a condition. You can't just be flashing strobe lights in somebody's face!”

In the end it maybe ended up being like 20 cops for seven girls and a guy. It was seven girls and a guy. So we wanted to make a complaint. We wanted to complain about what happened here. We wanted to go to guest services and talk to someone. They’re like, “That's at the front of the park.” So we're like, “OK,” but they wouldn't even let us walk through the park. They opened up a side gate that led to the parking lot and they push us out. Like, physically removed us from the park. So we had to walk back to the front and through that entrance to try to get to guest services to make a complaint.

I obviously thought it was very racial, so I contacted a lawyer about it and he thought we had a good case. I forgot his name, but he represented Assata Shakur in her trial back in the day for allegedly killing a cop. So he was a big shot and he said, “Yeah, I think you all have a case.” I said, “OK,” but the retainer he wanted was way beyond my means. I'm a broke law student. I can't afford that by myself, and nobody else wanted to do it. Only one other girl wanted to do it, but we could not together afford it. So we just had to forego it. But needless to say, I've never been back to Six Flags since.

Defender In middle school, I was a part of a baseball team, like a little league baseball team. So I'm walking down the street, I was walking back from practice. I'm in uniform. There's no way you could think I'm carrying this baseball bat for anything but baseball, right? There's no way. A cop car pulled up to me and demanded that I stop and explain myself. So I said, “I'm coming back from baseball practice.” They were like, “You can't just walk down the street with a baseball bat.” And I was like, yeah, I CAN, though. (Author reacts) Right? Like we were maybe a block away from the baseball field. These aren't burglar's tools or a tool for assault. I was with them for maybe 15 minutes, with them trying to understand why I had this baseball bat and whether I knew about any robberies in the area, and I said, “No. I was at baseball practice.”

So when I got home and told my dad, he stated, “You're not walking home anymore. Either a family member or I [will get you,] or a fellow teammate would drive you back if I can't.”

Defender I do remember when I was 17, I was driving one night. I had my junior license, and under New York law, you can't drive after 9 p.m. with a junior license [barring certain exceptions]. My cousin and I had gone to the mall and were coming back. We lived in the same development; she lived on one end, and I lived farther down. So I pull into a parking spot in front of her building minutes before 9 p.m. I drop her off, and she gets out. After she gets out, there was a guy who I went to school with. He was in my grade, and he lived in her building. He walked by, and he said hello to me. I said, “Hi.” Then I'm like, all right, let me get up the street and get home so that I can park this car. When I try to back up my car, I'm blocked in by a cop.

So the cop came to my window. This cop was notorious for just harassing people in my neighborhood. He came to my window and asked for my license and registration. I said, “Here they are. What's the problem?” He looked at my license and said, “Oh, you're not supposed to be driving after 9.” At this point now it's like 9:02 or 9:03 or something like that. I said, “Yeah, I just dropped my cousin off. I'm trying to go home. You can see my address. I live up the street.” And he said, “Well, you said hi to that guy and he's a known drug dealer, so I think you were buying drugs.” And I was like, “Seriously? He walked by and said ‘hello,’ and I said, ‘hello.’” He then said that he's going to impound my car.

At this point, my aunt has seen me blocked in by the police. She came down and started going off on him. I called my mom on my cell phone and my mom ended up driving over and also started going off on him. She said, “That's my car. You're not impounding my car.” Eventually he backed off and let me go home.

So that was one piece of drama.

Fast forward about 10 years. I was living down here in [another state]. My brother and I were visiting my mom in that same area in New York for her birthday. My brother had license plates from outside of New York because he lived in [the other state]. He had either a BMW or Audi at the time, I forget which. It was a nice car. It had tinted windows, but it was a legal tint in [the other state], although probably not a legal tint in New York. We're at the light that was at the corner right before my mom's neighborhood. We're sitting at the light, getting ready to turn, and we can see the cop. This is the same exact cop who blocked me in when I was younger. He's sitting at the light, to our right. He's about to turn left to where we are. And I see him staring at us; he's staring in the car. I said, “He's going to pull us over.” We make our turn. We start going up the street and pulling into my mom's neighborhood. He made a U-turn, came behind us, and pulled us over.

When he comes up to the car, first he taps on the back rear window, which is where my six-year-old nephew was sitting. He’s like, "Roll down this window." And I'm just like, “Back away from my nephew.” So he comes to the front, and we crack that window so he can see my nephew…. So he started arguing with my brother about his tints. My brother said, "These are legal in [the other state]. This is where I got them. You see I have license plates [from the other state]. I don't live here." The cop is like, "Well, it doesn't matter where your car is registered or where you're from. You can't drive with tints in it." So my brother turns to me and asks, "Is that true?" I replied, "I'm pretty sure it's not, but I'd have to pull up the statute." So he starts screaming at my brother: "Don't talk to her! I'm talking to you!" My brother’s like, "She's a lawyer. She's my lawyer. So I am going to talk to her." So then the cop's like, "Well, give me your bar card. I need to see your bar card." And I'm just like, "No. First of all, I don't carry around my bar card. I’m literally here to visit my mother on a weekend. Second of all, you can look me up on New York Attorney Lookup and [the other state’s] Attorney Lookup; wherever you want to look me up, look me up.”

So he runs my brother's license and registration. He then comes back and tries to give my nephew stickers. He was just like, "You know, I'm a fair guy. I'm a fair guy. You know, I'm just, you just got to watch the tints, blah, blah, blah, blah.” (Author reacts) He tried to give my nephew police stickers. I thought to myself, burn that shit. I was fuming because I didn't like him at my nephew's window. I could see what cop it was. I'm like, I know this cop. I know he's a hothead and I know he harasses people. And it was kind of terrifying in the moment, but then I was just pissed….

So I've had a lot of run-ins like that, just more like harassment from the local cops when I was growing up and stuff like that. And I was the kid who wasn't in trouble. I was in honors classes. And just because I'm a Black kid, you're just fucking with me because you don't know anything about me. You don't know anything about the people I hang out with. You don't know anything about my family. You just see my Black skin, and this is how you treat me.

Defender When I was in law school with two Black friends and study group partners, the police approached us—we were in a car, and we had just come from class and were discussing law school matters, like a case or something—and a bunch of cops approached us with guns drawn and tried to get us to get out of the car. We told them that we were law students just coming from school; and after a whole long interaction, they put their guns away and told us that there has been a lot of robberies in the neighborhood and that someone called to say that we were on the street just sitting there. It was a whole SWAT team experience.

There are other instances where I've been stopped and told that my vehicle had tints and was threatened with arrest. My vehicle never had tints. I don't tint my windows, because I don't want to be harassed by the police. I remember in one such instance, it was dark, and the police stopped me. They said that I had tints in my windows, and I said that I don't tint my windows. They said, “We're gonna get the machine and check the tints; and if you are tinted, then it's gonna be a problem.” I said, “Well, get the machine. I don't tint my windows.” Then they were flashing their flashlights into the car. I said, “Oh, let me turn on the lights in the car so that you could see better.” They're like, “Oh, you talking slick? You're gonna help us see better?”

Defender I have been in situations where I've been very afraid. There's two that I can remember off the top of my head. In one of them, there were three of us who were all Black in a car, two Black men and myself. We saw a white woman come out and look at us and go back in her house. And then we saw the cops. The cops surrounded the car, flashlights shone into the car, guns drawn. They came to the car and said, “We got a call that there's been some people sitting around, and there has been some robberies in the area. So we had to come and check.” At the time, myself and the other two people in the car were law students. So we said we were law students. We were parked around the corner from [the law school we attended]. So we said we were law students from [that law school].

I just remember being very afraid beyond everything that I've [ever felt]. I don't even remember how that encounter ended. I just remember the guns being drawn, the flashlights. And then I just remember praying that telling them that we're law students—some kind of respectability politics—will get us out of there alive, even though we know that that does not work a lot of times. But when you're facing possible death, you do what you can….

[This other time], myself and a Black man were stopped in a car. [When the officer approached], I told him, “I'm an attorney and I'd like to know why we were stopped.” From then, he became hostile. He became very hostile. And that's the second time that that's happened to me, [where I told a police officer I was an attorney and the officer then became hostile]. So I think I need to stop doing that.

The only reason why he calmed down is because we had three people in the backseat and they started saying, “Listen, this man is a pastor. This is a pastor; what are you doing?” And then he calmed down. Then I looked to my right, and there was a Black man on the street who was videoing the whole thing. I was like, “Oh my God, thank you!” He said, “Yeah, I saw y'all and I was just like, I'm going to video this to make sure they don't do anything they shouldn’t.

Defender Oh yeah. I've probably been frisked by the police at least a dozen times. The first time I was stopped by the police, I was maybe 12. I was coming back from my cousin's house. We went to Blockbusters to get movies, and we were coming back. My cousin’s parents, my aunt and uncle, had just bought a new car, a brand new Lincoln. My cousin was driving it. The cops pulled us over. They took him into the police car for like 20 minutes. They pulled all of us out the car. They frisked all of us. My older cousin who was driving was around 17, which means I was probably like 12. My cousin’s little brother, the youngest of us, was present…. The youngest person was about 9 or 10 years old. And they frisked all of us. When they frisked us, they grabbed us from head to toe frisking. That's a whole different story, but it's just a demoralizing experience. You have to stand there. So the officer puts their hands over your body, goes into your socks, grabs your crotch.

We went back to the car after they took us out and frisked us. They let us go back in the car while my older cousin, the driver, was in the police car. I remember my little cousin crying and he's like, “Yo, they fucking grabbed my balls. They like molested me essentially.” It was just the first time that I've been frisked, and I just remember being feeling so vulnerable and feeling so helpless. Since then, I've been frisked plenty of times later.

In Atlanta, I remember walking through Lenox Mall with my friends. There were about 10 of us just walking through the mall. The police stopped us and frisked us, claiming that we were selling drugs. We could have been selling drugs or playing some kind of game. In a mall! …

I remember when I was an investigator working at the public defender service in [a particular location]. I was walking with the two attorneys that I worked with and another investigator. It was actually my last day…. We're walking down the street, and the two attorneys were walking in front of us. As I'm walking, a cop just comes, grabs me by the arm, and says, “Show me your teeth!” I’m like, “What?!” He says again, “Show me your teeth!” And I'm like, “What are you talking about?” He says, “We're looking for someone who robbed someone. Show me your teeth now!” And he's grabbing my arm. The two attorneys—and these are criminal defense attorneys, these are public defenders—they don't really know what's going on. They finally notice what’s happening and come over. They’re like, “Wait, what's going on?” And the cop says to them, “Back up! Mind your business!” He is kind of making a scene. So eventually I just show him my teeth. He says, “Okay,” and he just lets me go and walks off. I'll never forget the reaction of the attorneys that I was working with when he leaves. They're like, “What in the world was that?! What's going on?” I said, “Yeah, he just grabbed me. He said he was looking for someone with no teeth and he wouldn't let me go until I showed him my teeth.”

I was pissed about it. But what I remember most distinctly is one of the attorneys that I was working for, a white woman, started crying as we were walking. She was literally crying over that incident. She couldn't believe that it happened. It was so traumatizing. I appreciated her sympathy, and I appreciated the fact that she understood that it was a bad experience; but it also really struck me that she has clearly never really had this type of experience happen to her. It was so traumatizing that she was really, really upset over it. Whereas me, although I was upset as well, if I was traumatized by every time I had that type of interaction with the police, I wouldn't be able to live. I'm just kind of desensitized to it. And that pissed me off even more. I thought to myself, fuck, I should be upset to the point where I'm ready to cry or ready to bubble up. But it is just something that's almost expected, so it just wasn't as big of a deal. It still was a big deal, but it was almost like business as usual. And I really remember her reaction versus my reaction and remember reflecting on why we reacted so differently and why she was so much more upset…. We are still upset, but we just know that that's the reality we live in, so it's not going to ruin the rest of the month for us. It just is what it is.

Defender One time I was driving with my uncle. It was in Queens, and we were on our block. We just drove by a precinct, but then the police stopped me…. They walked up and I said, “Why'd you stop me?” I hand my documents over to them at the same time. They say, “Just one second.” They take my license, check everything out. They then drove up, and an officer handed my license to me from his seated position in the passenger seat. I said, “I need your badge number, and I need to know why you stopped me.” ….

He looks me in the eye, and he says, “There was a report of a robbery with your vehicle's description. We checked it out and determined that it's not you.” At the time, I was not a lawyer yet. I haven't been to law school yet. I'm thinking that sounds like hogwash now that I'm looking back. I did not believe it then either. How do you know I didn’t just rob someone? You said my car matched the description, and all you did was run my license and run my insurance and gave me my license back? How do you know I don't have the loot in the car? If that were true, there would've been some more questions based on that; and there weren't any. So that's how I knew it was BS….

Defender In Queens, a cop stopped me and my friends after playing basketball. He jumped in the car and took his radio and drew it back just to smash my face in; and the only thing that stopped him is I said, “I'm a lawyer.”

Defender There are so many…. This happened after I became an attorney. A few years ago, I was arrested and detained for about eight hours in Brooklyn. This happened in the late spring. It was a Friday, and I had just left the office for the day. I was meeting my boy from college in Brooklyn, a teacher at a school in Brownsville. We met somewhere in Crown Heights by Bergen; we planned to grab some dinner and a beer.

I took the train and met him; he drove. We were walking down the block, because the place we were going to was in the middle of the block. All we had to do was cross the street, and the bar was right there. Two cops pulled up, got out the car, approached us and said, “What were you smoking?” We looked at each other confused, and we told them we weren’t smoking anything. They’re like, “We saw you smoking; you’re lying. What are you smoking?” Again, we denied smoking anything, because we weren’t smoking anything. They start searching us, and then one of them said, “Tell me now what you were smoking and it’ll be no big deal; but if I find it you're gonna get arrested. I'm gonna walk down the block; when I find it, you’re getting arrested.” I told him again: “Sir, I wasn’t smoking anything. I don’t have anything on me.”

He then walked down the block. I get put in handcuffs. Mind you, this is all happening in the daytime. He looked for it, came back, and then said, “Alright, because we couldn't find anything and you didn't admit to it, we're gonna arrest you for destruction of evidence.” They put me into the police car. By that time, they had searched me and my friend probably three times at this point. Like a total search, not a pat-down. And they found nothing, clearly. So I got put into the car at that point, and the cops tried to talk to me further. I said, “Listen, at this point you arrested me. I'm just going to invoke my constitutional right to remain silent and not answer any questions without my attorney.” Nonetheless, during the whole ride in the car, they continued to ask me to incriminate myself and admit to something that I didn't do.

I kept invoking my rights. We were around the corner from the precinct, and they called for a supervisor. They then got out the car and kept talking to me, saying, “Listen man, we saw you smoke. Just tell me what you were smoking. Was it a cigarette? What was it?” It got to the point where eventually I just stopped talking, because it was going nowhere and I was not going to lie and admit to something I didn’t do. Other cops come up, and they lie to their supervisor and claim that they saw me smoking something. The supervisor told them to make the arrest.

They get back in the car and drive me to the precinct. They take me into the precinct and search me again. The cop tells me this is my final chance to admit to whatever they want me to admit to. I invoke my rights again. They search me a fifth time now, since they’re putting me in the jail. They take me to the desk sergeant, who asks if they would be giving me a Desk Appearance Ticket. The cops said, “No, we gotta process him. We’re charging him with destruction of evidence and that’s a felony.” So they charged me with the felony and put me in the back cell.

They then went through my wallet, and they saw my identification. That’s when it got interesting. They saw my identification as a lawyer and were like, “Hey, why didn't you tell us that you were this from the beginning? This is a get-out-of-jail-free card.” When they said that, my mind was blown. I thought to myself, you are arresting me for nothing. I'm walking down the street, you said I was doing something I wasn't doing. I'm arrested, you charged me with a felony, and now you're telling me I had a get-out-of-jail-free card? What the fuck is that?! That makes no fucking sense!

My friend came down to the precinct with a couple other friends of ours from college and demanded the names and badge numbers from the officers. The officers then wanted to know if I had friends in law enforcement; I ignored them. Then I get fingerprinted and they’re still talking to me, still trying to get me to admit to something. I'm thought to myself, man, fingerprint me, take this picture and put me back in the fucking cell. I didn’t say that, but I sure thought it.

Eventually I started thinking of how embarrassing it would be for me, a few months into the job, to get arraigned by my own colleagues, some of whom started at the same time I did. Also concerning was that I had the ethics exam for the bar exam the next day, the MPRE. (Author reacts) Oh yeah, yeah. So all I knew was that I wanted to get before the night court judge before the court goes down at 1 a.m.; and I was racing against time because my first interaction with the police happened around 5:30 p.m.

So I'm just sitting in the cell; and man let me tell you, I really understand the pressure that makes people talk. Let me tell you something: I sat in that cell for about seven hours. I sat in that cell for so long, I started thinking, maybe if I admit I was smoking weed, they’ll give me a desk appearance ticket and I’ll be out of this situation. I didn't, because I'm a trained attorney and I wasn't going to admit to something I didn’t do. I became an attorney because of my experiences growing up and standing my ground and fighting back. But I had those thoughts.

Eventually one of the cops come back and I ask for the time, because I had no concept of time. The officer says, “It’s 11:30.” My heart sank at that point, because I knew that I was not going to see the judge tonight, as I was still at the precinct; and I was going to miss the ethics portion of the exam. I was so flustered. Then thirty minutes later, another officer comes and says, “Okay let’s go.” I’m thinking I’m going to bookings, and so I ask if the bus arrived. He says, “No, the prosecutor declined to prosecute the charges. You’re free to go.”

So I grab my coat. My phone and my asthma pump were in the possession of the cops that arrested me. I asked for my stuff back and they were like, “Oh we don't have it. The other officer was still on patrol. If you want, you can wait for him to return.” I said, “Hell no. I'm outta here.” So I left with just my wallet and my jacket. It was around midnight when I left, or after midnight, around 12:30. I was in Crown Heights, and I wasn’t familiar with it. I didn't know where I was, and I didn’t have a phone; so I just started walking. I start asking people where I could find the train, because as any New Yorker knows: if you’re lost, find the train and you’ll be found. I borrowed a phone and tried to call people, because nobody—family, girlfriend, friends—knew where I was. I couldn’t get through to any of them. I finally found the train, and I got home around three o'clock in the morning.

I did take my ethics exam and passed it, but I was just going straight off adrenaline at that point. And then after that, I just crashed, and then broke down and cried because I came to this point where I'm an attorney, and the same shit that happened when I was fifteen years old is still happening to me. I was getting treated the same fucking way. I had the same lack of power or control of the situation, and I was just at the behest of these fucking things with guns and badges. That was hard for me. It was hard for me, and it questioned my ability to stay in New York City, let alone continue this job.

I think I got $10,000 out of it. The NYPD settled. Whoop-de-fucking do.

Defenders also share negative police experiences family members and loved ones had:

Defender I remember growing up, and there was this one Black officer that was really tall and big. He was very abusive, very abusive. Everybody knew that, including other cops, the housing department and the housing police. I remember there was a basement where he and other cops would take people and beat the living daylights out of them. So everybody was afraid to talk back to these cops or anything.

I remember that my mother was looking out the window, and she saw this cop approaching us while we were on the bench. You know how kids are; we were making noise, but it wasn’t ridiculous; we were kidding around. He came over and he started talking loud, telling us to “shut the fuck up” and all this stuff. Then my mother called out the window in Spanish, telling me to come upstairs and telling my friend to go to her house. So my friend went to her house and I was walking towards my house; and he starts yelling at my mother. My mother comes down, and she was at the front door of the building. He starts yelling at my mother, so my mother tells me to just ignore him and come. So he arrested my mother. He arrested my mother, put her in jail, charged her with disorderly conduct and harassment. She was mortified; she had never been arrested in her life. At that time, we contacted our priests, since we were going to church; we contacted the people from the community. If it hadn't been for that, she wouldn't have been released with all charges dropped.

So anyway, that's just an example. Just a very small example. Other people got their asses beat, which is why we learned not to say anything to him or to any other cop; we didn't want to be taken down to the basement.

Defender I’ve never been stopped and frisked or questioned or anything like that. Nothing like that. But I know they’ve done it to my family members. I have a brother who’s six-foot-five who was on his way to work. He saw a bunch of cop cars zooming by and was like, wow, someone’s really going to get it. The cops all came up to him with their guns drawn and demanded to see ID. He began to reach for it when a female officer told him to stop and explained that, if he’s going to reach for anything, he should say something first. She then told the other officers, who came close to shooting him, not to shoot him and allow him to get the ID they demanded to see from him. It was traumatic for me to hear it, so I can only imagine how traumatic it was for him.

Another time he was in Brooklyn, and he had lip balm. They stopped and frisked him and found the lip balm and thought it was drugs. This too was traumatic for me; and it’s scary when he tells me these things, because there is only so much I can do. But it makes me burn up inside and I wish I could just go and choke them.

Defender My godbrother, my mother, and my godmother got stopped by the police, and they pulled my godbrother out of the car at gunpoint. It went viral. It was like a couple years ago. It was all over the country. My mother's white and my godmother's white, and my godmother's grandson is Black. He’s like six-foot-two, six-foot-three. He was 19 or 20 at the time. He was in the back seat of my mom's car. They had come from church, and they picked him up and were taking him to work. They were driving down the street and then my mother gets pulled over. The police ordered my godmother’s grandson out the car at gunpoint…. Later, the police told my mother and godmother that they got a report that a Black kid was robbing two white ladies in a Lexis…. Just because of what he looked like, he had to be robbing someone. No other reason he can be with a white lady except that he’s robbing her.

Defender I mean, yes. I've had police officers speak to me aggressively in my personal life. I've had police officers scream at me. But the majority of when I see negative interactions between the police and another Black person is usually when I'm with my father or with my husband or with a male significant other. It's another level of contention…. My husband gets pulled over regularly. It's a running joke in our household when [he doesn’t get pulled over]: “Oh, you’ve gone three or four months without getting pulled over and getting a ticket for some bullshit.” Once they pulled him over and tried to say that he stole my car. He was driving my car. He was coming from the grocery store, and the police pulled him over and tried to accuse him of stealing my car. That was the most recent incident.

One Defender shares a slightly different response:

I'll tell you about one moment, probably the last point in my life, where I felt like, ugh. I was coming out of the train station. I was actually going to work as a public defender. There was a cop in the train station; and as I approached him, he put his hand on his pistol. I'm like, “Dude, I got a suit and tie on; like, what's that about? And I'm not coming at you. I'm not grilling you. I'm not doing nothing. I'm just walking by you.” Yet he had his hand on his pistol….

As far as getting beat up by cops, I've never been beat up by cops. I've never been falsely arrested; and anytime that I was in a position to get arrested, I got a pass….

How often do cops: A) search and seize your clients illegally? B) assault your clients? C) lie in their paperwork? D) lie in court? E) steal your clients’ property? F) treat your clients with vindictiveness?

Search and Seizure Every Defender to answer this question gives an answer ranging from “often” to “always.” One Defender states: “All the time.” Another states: “Greater than fifty percent of the time. Majority of the time.” Concurs another: “Oh gosh. Too often. A lot, especially in certain neighborhoods.” Another Defender adds: “All the time. All the time. They break the law, and then figure out a way to lie and make it legal. That’s what they do, and they are trained on that. They go to cop law school, and are taught how to fix their bad situations and make it right. They do it all the time, and then they make it right. Stop-and-frisk wouldn’t work without knowing how to do that, and without being supported by a system that allows you to do that.”

Other responses:

Defender I see it often. I've seen it, and I personally have experienced it. It has happened to me often, so I know it happens often. I have personally been illegally searched several times. It's mostly been by the Anti-Crime Unit, you know the boys who are undercover, don't wear uniforms, undercover cars. That’s the force that the NYPD claims that they have abolished now. But we know that the NYPD just changes the titles…. There have been several times while I was driving that they would stop me, pull me out of the car and search the entire car. I would say that I am not consenting to any search, but it doesn't matter. They would still stop me, pull me out, and go through the glove compartment, open the trunk and all. It's always the same thing, you know? They haven’t done it in quite a while, so I’ve guess they’ve gotten sick of me; but I've definitely been mistreated by the police in that regard. The same is true for many of our clients.

Defender All the damn time. Every case, I swear. As an aside, I just had arraignments on Sunday. [I had a case where there] was such an egregious stop, I don’t even know how they plan on going forward on this case, because my guy was a passenger. So the car was stopped, and I’m like, how did you get out the car? How did you wind up out the car when [the police] stopped this guy for a traffic infraction, and you were not even the driver? And they made up some excuse, claiming, “I smell weed.” That’s always their catchall [excuse for searches at traffic stops]. It was a firearm case, possession of a firearm. And I thought for sure the prosecution was going to ask for bail.

When I called the ADA to ask how much, he told me, “Oh, we’re consenting to release.” So I started to ask questions about the predicate for the stop and everything like that, and that’s when he was like, “Uh, I think it was, um, tinted windows.” I said, “Anyway, any mention there as to how that resulted in my client getting arrested since he was not the driver?” He said, “Um, well, I think that’s why we’re consenting.” Like, he literally said, “I think that’s why we’re consenting.” They realized that the case has problems.

I mean, it happens all the time. All the time. Me and my friend were just driving by the other day and we saw about six cop cars for this one guy in a car, and she started yelling, “You know you don’t have to consent for them to search your car!” She yelled it because they were in there with a flashlight searching his car.

Defender Oh, very frequently. Very, very frequently. I think more than we know, to be honest…. I just had a case where I did a preliminary hearing; and in that case, the cops were literally trying to break into my client's apartment building. So the client gets arrested at, like, three or four o'clock in the morning inside his apartment, and it's like the typical setting: there's 30, 35 apartments in the building in general, with a door you have to buzz in. Once you buzz in, then you can go up and then you can knock on the door. The police officers literally had their knives out, trying to break into my client's building to arrest him.

That one for me was just a reminder, because it's not just the things that we know about. There's a lot of things that we don't know about, that we catch every once in a while on body camera. And it's like, wait, hold on. You are actively committing a felony. You're committing a felony right now. You are attempting to break into a residence, right? That's a burglary….

So yeah, it happens all the time. I think the issue we face a lot of times is that it's very easy for them to manufacture a reason after the fact. They arrest someone—they have no probable cause, nothing—and they just happened to find something. Then they say, “Oh yeah, I saw a bulge,” or they'll make something up; they'll find a reason to justify the action. And the legal system is just so broken that there's literally nothing we can do about it….

So it happens very, very frequently.

Assault Defenders’ responses to this question are more varied. One Defender answers: “Frequently.” Another Defender answers: “It happens sometimes.” One Defender thinks: “I think it happens often.” Another Defender thinks: “Not often.” Another Defender answers: “Too often. I mean, it happens.” Another Defender states: “All the time.” Answers another: “A lot. I wouldn’t say often, but it was definitely more than 51% of the time.” One Defender adds a little more: “Sometimes. I see it mostly whenever a client comes back from the hospital. I’ve had clients tell me point blank: ‘I was in the hospital because the police fucked me up.’ And then of course, to cover themselves, there will be a resisting arrest charge on the docket.” Another Defender remarks: “That I think happens more than we hear as well. And I'm not necessarily talking about just punching them. I'm talking about that extra little twist as they put on the handcuffs that’s hurting the client's wrist, the extra tight handcuffs that they know are too tight. I mean, those are pretty aggressive actions, and people don't perceive that as being violent towards our clients; but it is.”

A couple more responses:

Defender I mean, detaining someone and forcing them to submit to your power, I think that's assault. It's not just beating them. I had a cop once that arrested a client, and he just took his head and threw him into metal bars. I talked with him for two hours after that, and then I got him out of jail on like $500 bail. But when I called him that following week, he had no idea of who I was or what happened because he had a severe concussion. It was like his head was just scrambled. But they do it as often as they want.

Defender Also very frequently. In the same case that I'm talking about, where they tried to break into the client's apartment, they threatened to kill him. They allegedly found him on a fire escape outside of the apartment building, and they drew their guns and said, “Get up here before I shoot you right now.” They threatened to kill him three times. I think that, especially for a young Black man, it has to be extremely traumatic. My lived experiences pale in comparison to that; but I can tell you how fearful I am in those moments. When I get pulled over for no reason, my heart is racing. Add to that a gun in your face and a police officer telling you that they’re going to shoot you, and it has to be extremely traumatic.

I’ve also seen situations where people end up getting charged with resisting arrest. Most good defense attorneys—probably all good defense attorneys—when they see a resisting arrest case, a lot of times they can see through the bullshit and recognize that odds are that the client pissed the cop off, and the cop arrested them [for it]. The client did not say, “Yes, sir. Thank you for arresting me and taking away my freedom.” That pissed off a cop. So the cop wanted to take some action; but because of the circumstances, the cops also needed to cover their behind and make sure that there's a “legitimate reason” for them to make an arrest in that circumstance, or for them to justify their use of force in that circumstance.

There are other circumstances that I have seen as well where, even outside of that, clients ended up getting shot by the police. Then we'll end up getting a call because the client got shot by the cops and is now handcuffed to a hospital bed; and the family doesn't know how they should react. And I think the interesting thing about those types of cases is that those are the cases where the prosecutor is the least likely to give any sort of offer, because their assault of someone in the [borough] then gets covered up by this bogus portion of the district attorney’s office that claims that they want to investigate police officer misconduct.

Lying in Paperwork Defenders’ answers to this question are also varied. One Defender states: “It's not that often; more times, they just won't write it down. But I've caught them lying a few times. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't.” Another Defender answers: “All the time.” A few Defenders say, “Sometimes.” One Defender notes: “Oh my goodness; I think they’re trained to lie in their paperwork.” Adds another Defender: “I have yet to see paperwork where they haven’t. There are blatant misrepresentations.” One Defender states: “It happens a lot.” Another Defender thinks police lie in their paperwork “regularly.” Answers another Defender: “99% of the time. A lot.” Here are a couple of longer Defender answers:

Defender Sometimes…. I had a friend who was arrested for a DWI once. The lawyer went to the hospital to talk to the police officers, and the lawyer said, “Listen, you know it's after two hours now, so you can't get the blood sample from my client.” The cop said, “Yeah, we can. We’ll just change the time on the paperwork.” The lawyer replied, “Oh, you’re gonna do that? OK cool, please go on; do that. I would love for you to do that. Thanks for letting me know.” Then the cop was like, oh shit; maybe I shouldn’t have said that aloud. But that's just how common it is; cops are so comfortable with just saying that because they do it so much. He didn’t even see anything wrong with that until the lawyer responded as he did.

Defender Always. And I think one of the issues is that at some level they have also convinced themselves that they're not lying. Not only do they lie in their paperwork, but they also find ways to believe their lies in their paperwork. So they'll see something and they'll commit to it; they’ll say, “Oh, his eyes were bloodshot and watery” on a DWI; and then you zoom in, and they're not bloodshot. They're not watery. I can see the whites of his eyes; I don't see any red. But according to the police, “his eyes were bloodshot and watery.”

Part of it is malicious. I think part of it is also laziness. They just copy and paste, but I think even the areas where it's a result of laziness, it's also malicious because they know they want to screw someone over….

So it does happen very, very frequently.

Lying in Court Strangely enough, Defender answers to this question are less varied than the previous. Only one Defender answers: “Not that often.” Another Defender states: “Sometimes.” Other Defenders think it happens somewhere between often and always. One Defender states: “A majority of the time, about various things.” Another Defender opines: “I would say it happens more than sometimes, but maybe not a lot a lot. I think it is more often than not.” Another Defender adds: “How often do they lie in court? Always. Testilying⁵ happens very, very frequently. And the thing that pisses me off is that, if it's something that the judge perceives as being small, the judge won't even care; and even on the larger things, the judges oftentimes are scared to take action….” Adds another Defender: “I’d say just as regularly as they lie in their paperwork. They continue the lie in court.” Another Defender remarks: “I think they’re also trained in that too….” Another Defender thinks: “They come in lying; they’re testilying. So, all the time.” Observes another Defender: “I’d say often, but they’re always caught…. Yes, often. It’s like they’re too dumb to lie properly. This is the problem with them; they’re not smart.”

One Defender gives this answer: “Always. ALWAYS. Capitalize it, put it in red, and if you can make it flash, that would be great too.” Another Defender says this:

(Heavy laughter) Very often. Even when they don't have to lie, they will lie about stuff, which has always amazed me. I watched a suppression hearing a couple of years ago before a judge who was a very smart guy, but super pro-cop. The crux of the hearing was a factual issue, whether there was a window open where they claimed the smell of marijuana was coming out of the window. One cop claimed the window was definitely up; another claimed it was definitely down. The judge said, “Well, someone's lying, and someone's telling the truth.” So yeah, they lie a lot.

Stealing Property Defenders have varied answers to this question as well. A minority of Defenders that respond to this question think it happens infrequently. One Defender thinks: “Not that often. There's enough parameters in place where that's becoming more difficult to do. So that doesn’t really happen that often.” Another Defender states: “Rarely. I mean… sometimes. Now that I’m thinking about it, yeah sometimes.” Another Defender answers: “Sometimes.” One Defender says that the occurrence of police theft is “not often” and offers an anecdote:

I had a client that was arrested with over $500,000 in cash. (Author reacts) Exactly. So I was in arraignments. He was arrested for possessing a forged instrument. We get outside and I was just like, “Okay, goodbye. I have other people to arraign.” He said, “I don't have my property. It's money.” I asked, “Okay, how much?” He answered, “A lot.” I'm like, “How much?” I was getting annoyed that he wasn't leaving when I had to finish other cases, and I felt like this could wait. And he said, “$500,000.” I said, “WHAT?!” He said, “Yeah,” and I was like, “I’m sorry, kiss that goodbye! Yeah, that’s gone!”

But interestingly enough, they did not take his money. Whatever the amount was, it was all there; and the cops photographed it. I've never seen half a million dollars in cash in my life. His case was dismissed, but the feds ultimately took his money. But he knew that was a wash. He wasn't concerned about his money; at first he was, but then he was just like, “It's a wash.”

More Defenders, however, think that police theft of property happens often. One Defender answers: “A lot more than I think. A lot more than I would initially believe, but I think it happens a lot of times.” Another Defender concurs: “Often. My clients are always missing money. Their money is always short; what the cops report is always short. They steal my clients’ property all the time.” Another Defender agrees: “Oh, that's often. Money is the most common thing. I have a lot of clients who unfortunately have gotten thousands of dollars stolen. They’ve had up to thousands of dollars on them for whatever reason, and there's nothing in the voucher paperwork saying that police recovered that amount of money, and there's no record of it being held as evidence. So that money is just gone; so 100% of the time, whenever a client is complaining about something missing from the police long after their case is over, whether it's dismissed or not, it's money that’s missing.” Adds another Defender: “We have a lot of property cases, so I would say that happens a lot.”

A couple Defenders offer anecdotes with their responses:

Defender Oh my gosh! Regularly. And I had a case recently where a guy was arrested, and he had this diamond encrusted medallion on a necklace that was a commemoration of his brother's death. He sent me a video of the piece from the jeweler. It was so beautiful and expensive.

[After getting arrested, he told me that] the cop took it. So I called the ADA and I'm like, “It's not on the voucher. Where is this necklace?” The ADA says, “Oh, the cop said he gave it to the client's girlfriend.” The client's girlfriend is like, “No, I don't have it.” I tell the ADA, “They don't have it. I need to report this to IAB.” So the ADA speaks to the commanding officer…. My client, he is a person who stands on street corners regularly. The cop drives by the corner in the cop car and threw out a plastic bag with the necklace in it. (Author reacts)

Did he keep it to steal it, or did he just neglect to put it on a voucher? I don’t know; but once we started asking questions, then “Oh, he did have it.”

And that was one of the most blatant things. I mean, people are always talking about cash that's going missing. The count is wrong, because they know how much money they had. But that was just blatant….

I've had another guy, he had some diamond earrings. He was passed out behind the wheel of a car. So they take him to the hospital, and he’s charged with a DWI. Diamond earrings go missing. The only people there are the nurses in the hospital and the cops that brought him there. Where are the diamonds? We don't know; somebody stole them.

So it happens.

Defender Way too often. We were ironically just talking about this scenario. The NYPD is basically a black hole for cell phones and for anything else that they want to hold. I have a case where they still have a client’s motorcycle. The client was not accused at all of riding the motorcycle; someone else allegedly wrote it. They were just like, “Yeah, we’re gonna hold this until you tell us who was riding the motorcycle.” That’s just clear theft of someone’s property, their cell phone, etc. Especially in cases where the client has hung out with another Black person, or the NYPD claims that the client is in a gang, they will almost always try to see what they can do to take that phone and get information out of it.

When police steal property, getting it back is difficult. One Defender notes how “it’s always a nightmare getting anything back from them. Ugh!” Another Defender concurs: “There's no oversight with the voucher system. There's no oversight on how things are vouchered; and if your client pissed the police off, one of the best ways to piss your client off back is to lose their property. Without a voucher, you can't get your stuff back; so if you never write a voucher for something, it never existed.” One Defender shares this frightening story:

I had one client who had $80,000 that they took from him. (Author reacts) It’s so crazy, because my client was arrested on a DV charge and there was a gun in the apartment; but I believe that when they found the $80,000, they said, “To hell with the rest of this search.” My client has not been able to recover that $80,000 up to now.

So it’s all the time; they take money all the time. If you never write down that you found $80k, who’s going to know that $80k was in there? So I told him, “You’re going to have to take the L on that $80k, because nowhere is it written down that they even recovered it. It’s not written down in any paperwork.” And I think at that time, he was in the process of buying a house. So that was part of his down payment. (Author reacts) Yeah.

I’ve seen cops steal large sums of money. Large.

Vindictive Treatment Defender answers vary, but generally skew towards “often” and other answers suggesting similar frequency. A couple of Defenders state: “Frequently.” Several Defenders state, “Often.” One Defender thinks: “More than sometimes, not a lot a lot.” Another Defender states: “All the time.” One Defender expounds: “Often. If clients mouth off, the police would beat them up, or not give them a Desk Appearance Ticket (DAT) where the offense is DAT-eligible, opting instead to have them processed through Central Booking. The new laws help with the DAT stuff; but before that, there were arrests for minor offenses that came through late night arrangements, like having an open container or simple trespass. How do those clients not get DATs? That's the reason why.”

Other Defenders answers:

Defender Oh, I hear it all so many times. You make a complaint against the police; now they're coming by shaking you down, searching you for nothing. Or you got out of jail on your case--maybe the DA dismissed, whatever—and now they're coming for you, searching you all the time. I definitely think that happens a lot. They make the cuffs too tight. They’ll search you on the street to embarrass you in front of your friends and family, things like that. It happens frequently.

Defender Always. I think police officers have very fragile male egos; and when somebody does something to disrespect them in the slightest, they'll find a way to respond. And this is interesting timing with everything that happened yesterday, with people taking over the Capitol building, taking bombs into the capital building.⁶ I just can't understand how people are not making more of a big deal out of the fact that there were bombs at the Capitol building. But you look at that [police] response, and that response was because the speech [Trump gave] was something that the police agree with and believe in. So, the police don't take the same level of action.

But you look at the police reaction when someone says something they don't like, and they speak out against police abuses, and the reaction is completely different. People get maced, people get beaten with batons, people get seriously harmed as a result of police conduct. When a police officer is pissed off, you're fucked. Sadly, that's something that Black people know in general, and it's something that we pass amongst ourselves and oftentimes to clients [and citizens] as well.

When I give Know-Your-Rights trainings, I always make sure to say, “Look, this is the law, and this is what you are within your rights to do; but you also have to be aware of the fact that exercising your rights may have consequences. You are fully within your rights to say, “I don’t want to talk to you” or “fuck you” to a police officer; but you also have to be aware of how the police are going to react. If you're fine with their reaction, fine; but just be very aware of what their reaction will be, because they will take some sort of retribution against you. That could mean arresting you on bullshit charges, and it could also mean your life in certain circumstances.”

Defender They do it all the time. You piss me off, I may not say anything now; but conveniently I will not voucher some of your items. Your ID is taken; your phone disappears; your money's gone. It never got vouchered. And they know that not having ID complicates things when you're trying to come back for vouchers. So there are tricks and tactics to make your clients’ lives and their encounters with police as unpleasant as possible.

FN 5: “Testilying” is a term that was ironically coined in police circles. It refers to the act of police officers testifying falsely under oath. See Joseph Goldstein, ‘Testilying’ by Police: A Stubborn Problem, N.Y. Times (Mar. 18, 2018), https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/nyregion/testilying-police-perjury-new-york.html.

FN 6: This is in reference to the insurrection that occurred on January 6, 2021, in response to Donald Trump's false claims of election fraud in the 2020 election.

How would you describe your interactions with officers: A) at the precinct? B) in the courtroom?

At the Precinct Defenders report a range of experiences with police officers in the precinct as compared to court. Some Defenders think that generally, police are slightly better to deal with at the precinct than in court. One Defender states: “They are always more cordial at the precinct than in the courtroom. In the precinct, the cops are like, ‘Ma’am, ma’am, ma’am’ all day long.” Another Defender shares: “A majority of my interactions at the precinct have been professional, but some of them have been extremely problematic; I would go as far as to say the cop was racist and couldn't believe that there was a fucking Black attorney coming in to invoke on his client's behalf or doing a surrender for the client.” Adds another Defender: “Fortunately for me—maybe I'm an anomaly—I have good relationships…. When it’s outside of the courtroom, especially with detectives, I have a better relationship because they understand that I have a job to do; and there's a higher level of professionalism. I get a lot more cooperation from them outside of the courtroom.”

One Defender offers an explanation as to why police officers are nicer at the precinct: “When I interact with them at the precinct, in a way I'm kind of doing their job; I'm bringing my client in for a surrender. They don't have to go out and look for the client. So I feel that they are a lot nicer and a lot more respectable than when you are in court with them and you are cross examining them and they feel like they have to evade every other question that you ask. So I have had way better experiences interacting with officers at the precinct than I have had interacting with them in court or during a hearing or trial.” Adds another Defender: “It's funny: in the precinct, they're fine. It's like they're on their home turf. So they're usually fine, especially if we're going to watch a lineup or anything. I find that they're fine.”

Nonetheless, many Defenders report having negative interactions with the police at the precinct. One Defender observes: “They are rude. They’re rude, they talk down to you at the precinct, they try to intimidate you. They try to ignore you if your client’s been arrested.” Another Defender reports: “I've had some very negative interactions with police. When I was going to invoke on behalf of a client or do a surrender, I've had police be like, ‘Show me your ID. I don't believe you're an attorney.’ Some officers have been extremely fucking nasty to the point where I've almost filed complaints against them. I couldn't believe how rude they were.” States another Defender: “I think at the precinct, they're very flippant. They very much have the power. I've been made to sit outside in the freezing cold and snow, because they don't want anybody in the precinct and they know that I'm there to observe a lineup, for example. So I think they’re just very flippant, very much like, I'm going to flex all of this authority.” Another Defender gives this response:

The legal hurdles and obstacle course they oftentimes make you go through just to invoke your client's basic rights are just outrageous. They tend sometimes to play “hide the prisoner,” so they're moving your client around and you can't find them. They put you on hold for indefinite amounts of times. One time, I was told that they can't give me information over the phone; so I get dressed, arrive at the precinct, and then was forced to wait outside [the precinct. It's the dead of winter, and I was told I could not wait in the lobby. I had to wait outside in the cold for the detective to come out. The detective never came out to speak to me. They sent someone else to tell me that the detective wasn't available to speak to me, even though they told me to come down specifically to speak to them and had me waiting 30 minutes out in the cold. (Author reacts) They're basically trained, I think, in war tactics, tactics to break you down, because eventually most people get frustrated and simply quit…. They put obstacle courses for you to run through, and the whole end game is for you to give up….

According to one Defender, how cops are at the precinct depends on the precinct:

Oddly enough, which is so tragic, but it really depends on the precinct. I've had some surprisingly pleasant interactions with certain precincts; and not coincidentally, they were in the more affluent neighborhoods…. I called this one Williamsburg precinct and spoke to a police officer. Just from the moment of answering the phone, the interaction was mind-blowing; it was so different from past interactions. I called, and it wasn’t a fight just for basic information. I got transferred to the correct detective the first time. The detective wasn't playing games with me on the phone; he offered up the relevant information and provided me with what I needed. The conversation lasted 15 minutes, versus a 45-minute mind game.

Then you could call some of these South Bronx or Brooklyn precincts; and if somebody even answers the phone, then the games begin. You get transferred around, you get put on hold, they don’t call back, and you have start the process all over again because there's a new person who acts like they don't know what you're looking for. They don’t want to give you information that you're entitled to, just basic information. You offer to fax over proof that you're a lawyer, including your job and place of employment; and the fax number is wrong, or it's not turned on. Then you ask for an email address, you send the email, and they don't call you back when they say they're going to.

Another Defender observes:

At the precinct and in the courtroom, the one continuous theme is irony and sarcasm, especially for Black attorneys. I feel there's always this atmosphere of you being]just one step away from being in that cell. That's the vibe that I've gotten when I've gone to precincts to do lineups, or to do any kind of legal intervention, to turn my clients in. There are individual instances where the officers are very respectful and there's no undertone, but even when an individual officer or detective is being respectful in the precinct, the whole vibe of everybody else is some sort of a snickering undertone sarcasm: you are the lawyer?

In the Courtroom Extending the last answer, the Defender continues: “That carries over into the courtroom, where the sense that you get as an attorney interacting with the cops in the hallway--which is rare—but especially on the witness stand is this sarcasm and resentment in the courtroom. It’s the added element that they have to answer your questions, that you have a semblance of power over them to question them and to require or compel an answer.” Another Defender states: “When I've interacted with police officers off the record in court, they tend to be more polite, smiling and stuff like that. I think it is because the stadium changes, you know? When you're in the precinct and when you're in the street, that's their home field. They run the show. But in the courtroom, as attorneys, we run the show. They're in our environment, so now they have to play by our rules.”

Defenders generally report an increase in hostility from police officers in the courtroom. One Defender observes: “In court, some can be more combative in nature, and I don't necessarily get that same attitude when I’m calling or present in the police station for a line-up or something like that.” Another Defender concurs, stating that “in court…they see you as this person who’s attacking them, and so some of them can be extremely defensive. It shows in how they answer your questions. Some of them act scared, I will say; the newer ones tend to act scared.” Adds another Defender: “In court, most of the time I deal with them, they're on the stand or they're waiting to do a hearing. That's a naturally adversarial environment. Most times I'm cross examining them about things. So in court, it's adversarial. I have dealt with some cops that have been straight up and just told the truth…. For the most part though, in court it's adversarial and not too friendly.” States another Defender: “I feel like when you're in the courtroom with them, it's different. When they're on the stand, they're unnecessarily aggressive. They feel like part of their role is to make sure that you don't get an answer to any question that you want.”

A number of Defenders note how dishonest police officers are on the stand. One Defender states: “In the courtroom, these cops are just liars. I am in disbelief about some of the things that come out their mouths. They make shit up; they completely make shit up. I asked [a cop I know], ‘When you go in and testify about an incident that happened months ago, sometimes years ago, do you even remember some of these things?’ And he said, ‘No.’ So whatever the ADA tells them, that's what they say….” Adds another Defender: “Inside of the courtroom, I'm more in control. I get to render them incredible. I get to pull apart their lies. I have the ability to really dig into their character on cross examination. So I control them better in court; and I have gotten a lot of acquittals because I have been able to demonstrate that they are liars. I have been able to showcase the maltreatment of our Black and Brown clients. But they lie; they still lie. Even in open court under oath, they still fucking lie. They do. They try it because they know that the prosecutor's going to protect them somewhat.”

Here are few more Defender responses:

Defender I have to tell you: the greatest joy in my life as a litigator is cross-examining a police officer. Oh, it's beautiful! (Author laughs) I mean, there was nothing that gave me more satisfaction, because I'm somebody that's very confident anyway; and I'm not one of those attorneys that would ask the judge to instruct a witness to answer my question, unless a witness was extremely belligerent and the judge had no choice but to step in. If you didn't answer my question, I'll deal with you. I’ll step from behind the podium—with the court’s permission, of course, being very formal—and give you the business: “Answer my question, Officer Jones! Just answer the question! That's not what I asked you. Again, I'll repeat the question.” As much as a judge would let me get away with that, I would do that; and a lot of judges were amused…. I established myself as a respectable attorney. So whenever I went after the cops in cross examination, most judges would let me do whatever I wanted to do unless an ADA objected. Then they're like, “Alright, alright, alright.” But that was my greatest, greatest joy….

It's always sarcasm, resentment, and irony by police officers, particularly in the courtroom. It’s like, you, as some Black attorney in particular, have the gall and the temerity to approach them in the precinct about anything and question them; and then on the stand you question them and require them to answer or have the court instruct them to answer?

It was one of the best parts of my job.

Defender At the precinct—it is hearsay from my clients—but I’ve heard all sorts of stories, from cops being polite to them being nasty and not giving our clients anything to eat and drink, to leaving them in the holding cell for hours on end before sending them to the courthouse, just to fuck with them. I had a client recently who the cops hate, and they arrested him and left him in Central Booking for almost two days before they sent him to court. It was clear what was happening; everybody had his paperwork, everything was ready. They were just doing it on purpose just to fuck with him. So it depends. For some people, the officers are all right; they’re just going through the motions. Some have really bad experiences.

In court, the police that you see in court are usually warrant squad officers. They’re usually awful to people. I’ve seen a whole gamut of things…. I’ve seen warrant squad officers do what they’re supposed to do: they will talk to me, let me know that they’re going to rearrest my client, all those things. And then I’ve had some that are on some type of covert mission; they’ll arrest your client before he’s even appeared in court so you can’t invoke for them.

Defender Always adversarial. I don't think I've ever had an interaction that was not adversarial. I think the minute you show yourself to be who you are—a Black woman—and what you are—a defense attorney representing the person that they're trying to accuse of something—I have yet to find any police officer who [been] cooperative or helpful.

Defender So at the precinct, the officers are guarded; but there's another level to guarding when they're sitting on a witness stand. So they're guarded. For example, I've had to go to precincts with my clients and sit in interrogation rooms while the cops tried to question my client and things like that. They're cagey and a little shady, but not as cagey as they are when they're actually testifying and being put on the stand to answer questions. On the stand, they can be a bit more hostile. I've been treated very hostilely, as probably all public defenders have, by police at one point or another while they're actually in the courtroom testifying.

In the courthouse, I've walked up to cops on cases to ask questions about documents that they've had, like off the record. They had been pretty helpful. I've done that because a lot of times, especially as a newer lawyer, police jargon at times can be quite difficult to understand. A lot of it doesn't make sense; and you don't understand it. We kind of have to have a cheat sheet or a guide to understand their codes and certain things. So I've gone to police officers and asked them certain questions about their police paperwork off the record in the hallway before a hearing or a trial started; and they've been helpful. They've answered questions when I've asked.

Interestingly enough, I do find that police officers have treated me different because I'm a woman; and they treat me different based on what I wear and how I present myself. When I was on trial—and I have done a number of trials in my career—I used to think when I was crossing a cop that I needed to look masculine. I needed to wear pants, a strong collared button-up shirt, dark blazer. I thought I needed to look like a man and invoke that masculinity. And it wasn't until I did a trial where I was cross-examining a police officer that I learned something. The first day of cross examination, he was mean and angry. And then the next day, the case continued; and I came back and I wore a skirt and a frilly blouse. I let my hair down. He was nicer, and he smiled; and then I smiled. I noticed that his demeanor changed…. I caught onto that. So the next time I did a trial, I wore a skirt when I knew I had to cross the cop. I dressed like a lady and I pranced around like a lady. That cop was mean to me and belittled me; and the jury punished him for that. So it worked in my favor.

But also speaking to police officers off the record when you're a woman can have different effects depending on how the woman speaks. If you call and you sound forceful or assertive with police, you will get nowhere. I've had detectives call me back when I was nice and sweet to them on the phone and give me information. I’ve had detectives send me their DD5’s unredacted when the ADA would not.⁷ So twirling my hair and giggling got me what I wanted as an attorney, whereas being a bit forceful when talking to police officers didn't. So that’s just my take; and it worked. (Author reacts) They wanted someone who was like (high-pitched nasal voice), “Oh my god, hi!” That's what they want, and that's how you get the results. So that's what I did. Once I realized that that's what I needed to do to get what I wanted out of them, I played the game. It worked.

FN 7: A “DD5” is a form that detectives use to take notes related to their investigation of a case.

Why do you think cops get away with testilying so much?

Defenders give different but invariably related reasons for why police officers get away with testilying, a.k.a. police perjury. One common answer is that the system depends on it. One Defender words it this way: “I think that the system needs to believe cops for the system to work. Cops have to have some type of credibility, and they have to be more credible than the average person. So the system is very cautious to call out police officers because if we believe as a system that police officers lie just as much or more than average citizens, then the whole system collapses. So I think that we are forced to hold a police officer’s testimony as credible unless there's something extremely blatant that shows that they're lying. The system refuses to believe that cops lie all the time because it'll fail otherwise.” Another Defender concurs: “I think the state has an interest in maintaining the legitimacy of police officers. I think that as a society, most people are deferential to police officers. If you're not actively involved in the criminal justice system, if you are an ‘upstanding citizen’ … that sees people who are involved in a criminal justice system as threats in your neighborhood, then you too are deferential to the police….” Another Defender agrees:

Because this is how the system works: it gives credibility to a farce of a system, right? If they start finding these cops incredible or not credible, then they have to look deeper into all aspects of the system. If the shit is fucked up from the root, then the whole shit is fucked up. So I think they prefer to turn a blind eye to the lies, especially when a judge or a prosecutor already feels like our client is guilty. They’d rather give credence to the cop; even if the cop’s testimony doesn't pass muster, they still go out of their way to give credibility to the cop because it's more important for a conviction than holding the cop accountable. Instead of saying, “Maybe this person did do this, but the cop fucked it up, so we gotta let this person go,” they’d rather do the opposite and say, “Well, this cop is fucking it up vaguely, but because I feel like this person did it, I'm gonna try to figure out a way to continue on with this prosecution.”

Because the system depends on assuming police officer honesty, many Defenders note that police officers get away with testilying because there is no punishment for them. One Defender states: “Because nobody holds them accountable. So they’re going to keep doing it.” Agrees another Defender: “Because they're a gang. They have so much protection in the city. No one's going to do anything. What's going to happen to them? You see cops getting away with murder, so why wouldn't they get away with testilying?” Another Defender responds: “Because there’s nobody policing them. Plus, there’s this code amongst them where, if you do speak out against them or say that something they're doing is wrong, or that things didn't happen the way that they reported it, then you as a police officer will [be made an] outcast by your fellow brothers in blue.”

Many Defenders place the blame on judges and prosecutors together. One Defender notes: “Because of judges and ADAs. The judges in these suppression hearings, if they cannot find something demonstrably false that has a notary and a priest and a blood sample as confirmed, they will accept the officer at their word….” Another Defender shares similar sentiments: “These judges just let them get away with it, and the ADAs aren't doing shit. They're supposed to be the gatekeeper. They can have a special prosecution unit that prosecutes these lying cops, but they don't. So the cops do it because they can and no one checks them.” Another Defender notes: “Judges let them get away with it, and they are coming into this with the perspective that officers are speaking the truth and that officers don't lie when they clearly do…. They also lie because prosecutors tell them to lie.” This Defender shares this anecdote:

I had this case where I caught the cop lying. He said that he took photos of certain evidence and I knew he hadn't taken them, or if he did, I knew that I hadn't received them in discovery. So when he said that he took them, I knew he was full of it. Then there was a break in his testimony, and I told the judge that I never got the photos he referenced. So the judge had the prosecutor speak to the officer; and then the officer said, in that private conversation that wasn't under oath like his previous responses were, that the photos never existed. I was like, wait a minute! They had an officer who was committing perjury, and of course it's always perjury that helps the prosecution, perjury that strengthens their case. We have an officer who just lied, having said under oath that he did something he did not do. And the judge didn't do anything. She found him credible and didn't really get into this lie. I asked for sanctions; she didn't give us any. And I’m like, what the heck?

Some Defenders focus the blame on judges. One Defender answers this way: “Because the judges allow them to.” Another Defender states: “I think judges look at the end result. So, yes, this cop is massaging the truth, but [the defendant] did have a gun. So I'm going to overlook [police perjury] and focus on the gun….” Adds another Defender: “They walk around with impunity because the judges are complicit in their lies. Do you know how many times I've been in a suppression hearing and I'm watching this cop and he's lying his ass off, and then the judge's decision says: ‘I find this cop credible’? And I'm like, oh my God! Did we see the same cop on the stand? Did you pay attention? Because it's clear this cop is lying! I would be so frustrated.” Another Defender notes: “At the end of the day, judges don't care. A lot of them are not willing to test a cop's testimony. They just rely on it. It's true. Now they may test our clients and our witnesses; but call a cop, and it’s like whatever he says is truthful, even when it really makes no sense.”

Other Defenders zero in on prosecutors. One Defender states: “I think it starts with the prosecutors. I think prosecutors are too scared to call them out because of their powerful union, and so the prosecutors put these people on the stand and then judges allow it.” Concurs another Defender: “Because of the prosecutors. It stops with them: if the prosecutors would not suborn perjury as often, we wouldn't have a lot of Black and Brown people in jail. You need to be able to vet those officers, questioning their stops and their searches, instead of just taking them at their word. And then you have those prosecutors that enable them because they want to win at all costs, even at the detriment of the life and liberty of our clients. So they’re in cahoots with the police. The cop needs to get that arrest. He got that collar, and that conviction looks good on him. And it looks good for the prosecutor; he gets promoted.”

A few more responses:

Defender Because the system doesn’t care about poor Black people getting locked up.

Defender Because who are you going to believe? If a jury of “reasonable people” is looking at somebody who's accused of doing something terrible versus a cop who has a badge and took an oath to uphold the law and protect and serve and all that; on its face, who are you going to believe? Especially if your client has a record, especially if your client looks like a “bad guy” and you want to believe the cops who are out here, [allegedly] protecting and serving us all. People want to believe them, but even judges believe the police, when their stories have blatant holes in them.

Defender Two weeks ago, I was in arraignments; and in that shift, every single goddamn car stop where they found a gun in the car, in every single one of them, they so happened to smell marijuana. During bail arguments, I said, “You know what? I find it incredible, judge, that in every car stop, they always smell marijuana.” The judge nonetheless set bail. But this is a serious suppression issue.

Defender Well, I think it's because our society has a fear of Black men and Brown men. I think the old images of Black and Brown men being dangerous have been perpetuated throughout our history, starting with slavery. The police have been assigned to keep Black and Brown men in their place, and most of white society admires and appreciates that “protection.” And they're willing to allow the police to lie to keep what they feel is their community safe from the men in my family, from my son, my brother, my dad, my nephews.

Defender I think people see the badge and people see the uniform, and people inherently see good. When you look at cops, you don't think about the bad things that they do. When you look at cops, you think about things like 9/11—well, not me, but some people—they think about 9/11. They think about heroism. They think about what cops have to do on a daily basis to make sure they get home to their families. I think that's the reason why they're able to get away with a lot of it.

I think also the reason they're able to get away with it is because they don't get challenged in court; and if you challenge them too much, you look like a crazy person….

In your experience, how often do police officers commit misconduct that rises to the level of being criminal? How often are officers prosecuted for criminal misconduct? Are you aware of any officers being prosecuted in your particular borough for conduct that was directly harmful to any client you’ve ever had?

As to the first question, Defender responses range from sometimes to always. A sampling of short responses: “All the time.” “Frequently.” “All the time. It’s like breathing for them.” “Well, lying under oath is criminal, so I would say often. Whenever they lie in sworn paperwork, whenever they lie about where they found something when they testify, it's a crime; and it happens often.” “A lot. I mean, lying on their paperwork and then swearing that it's accurate is a crime, even if the lie is small. I've had officers lie about when they started their shift.” “I would say often.” “All the time. Lying on the stand is a criminal act. They're committing crimes on a very regular basis.” “I’d say a lot.” “I think any time in their official capacity that they do something, it rises to criminal.” “That’s probably all the time, because they’re always lying.” “I would say often.” “I would say at least—because I think it's hard to quantify—but if you think about the breadth of one's cases and all of that, I would say at the very least 50% of the time. I think that's a fair answer, and probably a modest one. 50% of the time.” “Sometimes.” “I'd say often. Often. Every time they beat somebody up, which is often, that's criminal. It's an assault. Every time they lie under oath, that's perjury. So often, very often.” “Very often. I mean, assaults happen so, so much.” “All the time.”

Some Defenders give more expounded answers:

Defender I think it happens more than we know; but I think that so many members of our communities, particularly young people, are afraid to press charges. Not as many as before, because now more people are willing to seek out lawyers that do civil rights cases and sue the police and all that stuff. But for years, people were afraid. People were afraid to report a police officer for stealing their money, or for harassing them, or for mistreating them.

Defender I think all their misconduct is criminal, so…. (Author chuckles) I think by virtue of you being a cop, and engaging in misconduct, and I specifically mean as it pertains to a criminal prosecution—I ain’t talking about you detoured from your job to go get donuts, like I could give a rat’s ass about that—any kind of case-related misconduct, whether it be mistreating of a client, lying under oath, lying on your paperwork, stealing property, I think all of that is criminal. All of it. And they do it all the time.

Defender Often. My clients have told me that the police beat them up in making an arrest, using more force than was necessary. Like they had purposely hurt my clients unnecessarily, and sometimes there's video surveillance to support it. I've been walking the street and seeing cops just get rough with people or just get disrespectful right into the level of criminal…. I've had clients tell me that the cops stole their money, especially when it's a homeless client. I think those are the two main things that I've heard often enough that I don't think my clients are just making these things up.

Defender Of what I'm aware, based on what my clients have said, it is common. It is very common usually when you see the charge of resisting arrest. And I'm not saying that maybe my client did not necessarily resist, but some states distinguish resisting with violence and resisting without. New York doesn't make that distinction….

I remember trying a case with a colleague of mine, and the client was charged with assault in the second degree because the officer broke his hand while punching the client. Not the client broke the officer's hand; the officer broke his hand from beating the guy while other officers were on him. That was an acquittal…. Whenever I see resisting arrest and my client shows up black and blue, probably 85% of officers involved have these lawsuits filed against them for excessive force. It's just so common. When we’re getting ready to do hearings or going to trial on a case at some point, or even earlier when we need a bargaining chip, we start pulling up these officers' lawsuits and we start looking and seeing what's in there. We find out who the plaintiffs’ firms were and we find out how much the settlements were…. And we see it over and over again.

One time we did a 50-h hearing,⁸ and the judge signed off on us receiving the officer’s personnel records. We pulled up his file. This guy punched a person who was in cuffs. He had a DWI conviction while off-duty. There was some really disturbing stuff, bad car stops and the like. And this guy was like a sergeant or a lieutenant; he was a supervisor of some sort….

It happens far too often, and far too often it goes unpunished. And even when it's punished, you look at the fight that was put up to prevent the public from knowing. That should be an automatic you're-off-the-job-and-you're-a-defendant-now. Automatic.

Defender We have in cases in Staten Island where they planted evidence;⁹ and certainly I've known police officers to plant evidence. With the video cameras, we've seen police officers do car searches and put marijuana cigarettes underneath a seat, or place drugs in cars. We had a case that got dismissed because of that. But did the police officer get prosecuted? No. So we know that they plant evidence….

Defender I don't know if we would necessarily hear about it. There's one case that I'm thinking about where the prosecution gave us a Brady disclosure that the officer had had sex with an underage girl through the NYPD Police Athletic League program. And I'm like, “How is this officer not arrested? How is this officer still arresting people?” And there was, I think, a finding by Internal Affairs—they were “investigating”—and they said it was consensual. But it doesn't matter; it's still statutory rape. And I was like, I don't understand. That rises to the level of criminal conduct. How is he not arrested? How is he not being prosecuted? How is he still on the force? And then come to find out, he'll probably be running the Police Athletic League.

But yeah, but for the prosecution's Brady disclosure, we would never know about that. And I think this prosecutor was a little bit more upfront than others. I'm not necessarily sure the other ones would've checked or looked to see if there was any investigation pending against the officer.

Defender In my experience, sometimes. Not vouchering all the money that the client has or all of the jewelry that the client has; or assaulting clients; somehow, your hand got injured, and my client has a black eye or a busted jaw, but you got hurt. Or better yet, you chase my client, you fall and break your ankle, and he gets charged with [second-degree] assault because your fat ass couldn't fucking stay upright. That would be the best one right there. Like, you hurt yourself trying to chase me and I get charged with your assault? How does that work?

As to the second question, Defender answers range from “rarely” to “never.” As to the third question, the answer is almost uniformly “no.” A sampling of short responses to both questions: “Never, maybe rarely. No, no.” “(Laughter) Are they prosecuted? Almost never.” “Never, no.” “Rarely, seldom, close to never. No.” “Almost never. No.” “Never. Nope.” “So close to zero it’s not even funny. I’m not aware of any cop that was prosecuted. Now I have found out later that they maybe got docked some vacation days through some internal NYPD procedure, but as far as being prosecuted, no.” “If they manage to kill or severely maim a particular defendant, they’re prosecuted one percent of the time. Otherwise, no.” “Rarely. No.” “One percent of the time. No.” “Hardly ever. No.” “I couldn’t tell you. I’d say slim to none. No.” “Never. No.” “Never, almost never. No, I’ve never had a police officer prosecuted for conduct that was harmful to any client I’ve ever had, including the man who killed Mr. Garner. I was not representing Mr. Garner on the open case he had when he was killed, but I had represented him in the past on nonsense.”

A few Defenders speak to how ineffective the Civilian Complaint Review Board (CCRB) is in holding police officers accountable. One Defender states: “I was actively involved in dealing with the CCRB and making complaints; I’ve talked to the DA’s office about shit. Never have I seen police being prosecuted.” Another Defender adds: “I’ve dealt with the CCRB so many times. There was one case I was working on where I sent a request for information to the CCRB, and the head of the CCRB at that time was so frustrated with the NYPD at that point that she sent me a volume of materials. She sent me interviews of CCRB personnel calling the police lawyers and telling the lawyers to give them the information before giving it out to anybody. These were conversations between CCRB agents and representatives and lawyers from the police department in which the lawyers were telling CCRB officials not to prosecute. These conversations were completely inappropriate; these were NYPD lawyers interfering with the CCRB process. It was no wonder why the CCRB almost never sustained allegations against cops.”

Some of the older Defenders recall the judicial treatment of some of the more sensational cop crimes in New York City. One Defender recalls: “The only case that I remember an officer being successfully prosecuted made national news. Oh, what was this guy's name? He was the one that they raped…. Abner Louima, yes.¹⁰ That officer went to prison. Abner Louima. Yeah, that was him…. And the media, they're not supposed to put rape victims' names in the public. They're not supposed to do that. And they did not respect that with this man. He was all over the press…. But that's the only one I can remember where cops got prosecuted.” Another Defender answers:

Almost never. It's few and far in between; and when they are prosecuted, it takes an extreme case for a police officer to be prosecuted, and I mean extreme. Like Abner Louima extreme, you know? Something like that, where shoving their baton up the guy’s backside resulted in a very long, well deserved sentence. But outside of something really extreme in the case, it doesn’t happen….

The other thing that would happen a lot is that cops would waive a jury, go in front of a friendly judge, and either wind up getting acquitted or getting convicted of a much lower count and getting a non-jail sentence. I remember one judge in the Bronx acquitted a cop in a case where there was just shocking stuff. Yet with this judge, whatever the cops wanted the cops got; and he wound up quitting this guy, and I just remember being upset by the entire thing because it was absolute complete bullshit that he acquitted him.

Judge Scheinman acquitted another cop in the Bronx after a bench trial where he made this whole long statement about how 30 cops took the stand and were perjuring themselves and lying, but she still said that the prosecutor did not prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. This was the cop that killed Anthony Baez, who was playing football with a friend when the ball hit the hood of the police car¹¹; and they got really angry about this whole thing and ultimately killed him with a chokehold. If you or I choke somebody to death in the street, we'd be in Sing Sing right now doing a very, very long sentence, or some other hell hole in the New York state prison system. But the cop wound up being acquitted, and it was an absolute joke….

Along the vein of the last answer, Defenders find that in the rare instances when cops are prosecuted, the state is not as aggressive in seeking either a conviction or serious punishment as they are with civilian clients. One Defender notes how “it's problematic; not only are cops rarely prosecuted, but when they are prosecuted, it's like a light prosecution. In Brooklyn, they send the cases to [this particular judge]; and he goes easy on the cops…. Look at Akai Gurley’s case.¹² The jury convicted on a charge that carried a mandatory prison sentence. This judge dismissed the charge and sentenced him to a lesser charge where he could give him probation; and he gave him probation instead of prison.¹³ That's like a false prosecution, or just like a show prosecution. So even the quality of the prosecution when it happens goes down. So cops being prosecuted happens rarely; and then when it does happen, it's not a real prosecution.” Another Defender gives this answer:

I've seen one officer prosecuted. The one that I can recall is an off-duty police officer that was patronizing a prostitute, and then beat the prostitute. (Author reacts) One could say [he] tried to kill [her. He did] the whole thing: rape, beat, whatever. The young woman escaped the car and was running down the street naked. Some marked police units saw that part of it. The off-duty officer then took off and, I think, crashed. And that's how he got arrested.

He was arrested and prosecuted. He went to trial in the Bronx and was convicted. I'm not sure what he was convicted of, but he was convicted. I remember this: after conviction, there was an argument between the prosecution and defense regarding whether or not the off-duty cop should get to stay out pending sentence. Part of the state’s argument focused on the age of the victim. The young lady's mother came in and testified, but she didn't have the birth certificate. The judge [ultimately] let the police officer stay out even after he was convicted, pending sentence. And if I remember correctly, one of the reasons was because the judge wasn't persuaded on the young lady's age, even though the mother had testified.

So there was a prosecution, but that's the only one that I've personally seen or been aware of in the courthouse. Anything else has been stuff that I've read.

Other Defender responses:

Defender I haven't seen it much. Rare, very rare. It has to be super egregious. I mean, we are in a society now where we don't even prosecute cops for busting down doors and killing the wrong person. And that's murder; that's the crime society holds up as the highest wrong of all that there is. So if we're not prosecuting cops for murder, you think we're going to prosecute cops for simply changing the hour that he gave a breathalyzer from two to four? No, we're not going to do that.

Defender Ha! Only the big, big press cases are prosecuted. So many just don't get prosecuted…. In eight years, I don't think I've ever seen a defendant that was a police officer. I don't think I've ever seen that. Neither in arraignment, neither in open court. It's like a unicorn drinking Kool-Aid; you just don't see it.

Defender I have seen officers prosecuted for DWI, but not for misconduct against a client. And even with DWIs, I've seen them in arraignments: they got stopped for drunk driving, they come into court, and they get pushed through the system really fast, and they go home. But no, I've never seen them being prosecuted for misconduct….

Defender Very few times. It has to be something blatant for them to be prosecuted. They would have to be caught on video stealing money or something to be prosecuted.

I don’t know if he was prosecuted, but [I had a case where the officer] was definitely reported to the public integrity bureau in the DA's office. My client was charged with drunk driving, but there was no key in the ignition and there was no key in the car…. So at the hearing, the officer says there was no key, nothing. Then at trial, he tries to come in and say, “Yes, he used a key that was in the center console to start the car.” So he got reported to the public integrity bureau, because there was never a mention of a key. He never vouchered any keys. There were never any keys mentioned at all. I don't think he was prosecuted, but he is definitely now on the list of cops where his credibility is kind of shot based on what he did.

I only know of one case where cops were prosecuted in [my borough], and that was when the cops had planted drugs on one of our clients. It was caught on video that they had planted it; and the cop ended up getting a felony.¹⁴ But whenever these cops get arrested, they get chosen to go to certain judges; and they go to those certain judges because their likelihood of being convicted is slim to none as a cop…. If a cop is a defendant, that cop is only going to certain court parts. This is not like everybody else, where they spin the wheel and go to whichever trial part is open….

From my understanding, the ADA that tried the case of the cop planting evidence was in the public integrity bureau; and her fellow ADAs gave her a hard time. They were nasty to her. They were like, “How could you do that?” They were sitting in the front row scoffing and making faces at her. She was not treated very well for trying that case, because I think that her critical colleagues had worked with these cops before. And I'm like, whether or not these are cops they have worked with before, this cop is a convicted felon. Get over it….

FN 8: At one time in New York, police disciplinary records were not publicly available. Defense attorneys needed to write and win motions and/or special hearings to get an opportunity to receive disciplinary files. Those hearings were called “50-h hearings,” named after the state statute, Civil Rights Law § 50-h.

FN 9: See George Joseph, Feds Investigating Drug Planting Allegations Involving NYPD Officers, The City (Oct. 12, 2023, 8:04 AM), https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/12/13/edny-fbi-investigating-nypd-drug-planting-allegations/.

FN 10: Abner Louima was a Haitian national who, in August 1997, was sadistically victimized by NYPD officers while in police custody. In collaboration with other officers, Officer Justin Volpe sodomized Mr. Louima with a broomstick and then shove the bloody, excrement-laded broomstick in Mr. Louima's mouth. See Shielded from Justice: Police Brutality and Accountability in the United States, Human Rights Watch (Jun. 1998), https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports98/police/uspo102.htm.

FN 11: See the link in footnote 10.

FN 12: Akai Gurley was a 28-year-old Black man who was killed in his own NYCHA residence soon after he and his girlfriend entered the stairwell. Police Officer Peter Liang entered the building with his gun drawn and fired his gun in the stairwell, and it ricocheted off a wall and struck the unarmed Mr. Gurley in the chest. See CBS New York, Family Mourns Akai Gurley On 3-Month Anniversary Of Deadly Gunshot By Officer, CBS News (Feb 20, 2015, 8:39 PM), https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/family-mourns-akai-gurley-on-3-month-anniversary-of-deadly-gunshot-by-officer/.

FN 13: See Joseph Ax, N.Y. officer avoids prison for fatal shooting of black man, Reuters (Apr. 19, 2015, 5:33 PM), https://www.reuters.com/article/sustainability/ny-officer-avoids-prison-for-fatal-shooting-of-black-man-idUSKCN0XG135/.

FN 14: See Jamila Bey, NYPD Detectives Lied in Multiple Cases Leading to False Convictions, BET News (Nov. 9, 2021, 7:47 PM), https://www.bet.com/article/bpzfv8/nypd-detectives-lied-multiple-cases-leading-false-convictions.

What do you make of the current climate? Do you have hope in a more equitable future as far as policing is concerned?

For appropriate context, most of the Defenders answered this question within a year after George Floyd was murdered by Minneapolis police. Some Defenders are optimistic. One Defender answers: “Yes, yes. Definitely, with all these protests going on across the city. To the little hope we had before until the little more we have now, yes, I definitely have more. Just for the simple fact that you watch these protests, and there's a lot of white people out there protesting, not Black people. You watch Selma, and it’s all Black; 99.999% of the protestors are Black people. Now you look, and they are majority white people.” Another Defender states: “I guess I'm hopeful that the conversation will start becoming more truthful and have more integrity. A wide variety of constituencies are very invested in policing as a mechanism to surveil and control Black [people]. So I don't know that I've seen enough to talk about a more equitable future, but certainly the conversation has become more truthful. I've seen really amazing demands by activists that really reflect some of the key problems. So instead of talking about training, people are talking about ending qualified immunity…. I think that shift in the conversation, that shift in the perspective, is really good and important.”

A few Defenders note how they have more hope in part because doing so is necessary for their psyche. One Defender states: “Yeah, I do. I have to, just me personally. I have to. I've got two young ones. I just have to, because I think when you get to the point that you don’t, the fight will not necessarily be in you. So we have to continue to fight. I mean, there are going to be some days when you don't, there are going to be some days you need to rest and just kind of unplug and disconnect. But I think you always have to have hope. This is me on a personal level. Will it come in my lifetime? Probably not. Even in my oldest child's lifetime, I'm hoping that as my older child gets older, things get better. So I'm hopeful for my older child and my younger child. But we've got a long way to go. It seems like we're kind of standing in the same spot. Just a different day, same spot. But you know, keep hope alive.” Another Defender shares:

I mean, yes. I cannot exist in this world and do the work that I do and be the human being that I am and be happy without hope. What are we without hope? So yes, I do have hope. Realistically speaking, do I think it's something that I'm going to see in my lifetime? Perhaps to some degree; I think there's always an ebb and a flow. So we're going to make a little bit of progress perhaps, or some perceived progress, or some progress in some areas, in some neighborhoods and in some jurisdictions; and then we're going to not see a whole lot of progress in other places and other areas….

I do have hope, and I also have to remember that each generation that comes into the world has a different perspective from the generations before; and our perspectives as earlier generations is definitely limited by our experience and our conditioning. So what we see as possible is limited by all of that; and what the younger people see as possible is not limited by that. I was there at one point, and I'm still there to some degree; but I recognize that I'm older now. So I don't have as much naivete, but that's a good thing to have to some degree because if you don't know what's impossible or you don't think things are impossible, then maybe you can make it happen.

So I am hopeful. I'm hopeful because of what I know. I'm hopeful because I'm aware of what I don't know and what I am unable to perceive because of my own limited perspectives. I'm also hopeful because I do believe that people generally speaking are good. People are good, and they want what's best for society. So I believe that at some point, humanity will get it together. Our lives depend on it.

The majority of Defenders, however, have no hope in a more equitable future with policing. One Defender states: “No. I don’t think policing will ever be equitable.” Another Defender, asked this question a week after the attempted coup of the capitol building, answers as follows: “I mean, really? The current climate? Like after the insurrection? After we saw a whole bunch of white supremacists try to take over the government? I have no hope after that.” Another Defender adds: “No. I guess it's one of those things where every candidate for mayor, governor, president, etc. that I think would actually do something doesn't win. Policing is one of those situations where Republicans and Democrats are honestly on the same page. Every one of their reforms is just about throwing more police and money at the problem. It's never really taking a moment to figure out what they can do better. So no, I'm not really confident in the future.”

Here are a few more responses:

Defender I think we are way too divided. I don't think anyone wants to see the gray area. I think you have the people who are just like, “We love the police. Yay, police! Police!” And then you have the ones who are like, “I hate cops. All cops are pigs.” So I don't know if we can ever get to a point of understanding because for the folks who don’t like cops, they don't want to hear the people say, “But who are you gonna call when something goes wrong?” and “Not all cops are bad” and crap like that. And yes, that’s right: all cops aren’t bad.

But I feel as if—and maybe it's because of where I fall in the debate; I could be biased, probably—the people who think that cops can do no wrong, all cops are good, that they support law enforcement, they don't want to at least acknowledge that there are bad police officers. And that is problematic to me. Like, really? You can’t acknowledge the fact that there are bad police officers? Like you would acknowledge that for the most part, pastors do good; but there are pastors that are bad. There are really good doctors, but there are also doctors who have preconceived notions and treat their patients in a certain way based on their preconceived notions.

Some people won't concede that either; they just choose not to see, or they don't want to tarnish this ideal they have of these golden professions by thinking that one of them could maybe not be so great. So I don't know if we [will] ever come to a meeting of the minds about police officers in this country.

Defender No.

Defender No. It's like a cycle. They do bad things, like they did in the summer of 2020 with George Floyd. They kill people, we protest, they beat up and arrest and charge protesters; and then they get to say what should happen. Usually there is some money paid out, which people seem to be more comfortable with instead of actual criminal sanctions; and in some ways it undercuts criminal sanctions. Then they say, “Oh, give us more money, and we’ll pipe down, we’ll fix it and do what we need to do.” But those things don't work, and we know they don't work. But people cannot wrap their heads around getting rid of them in a meaningful way, because they are afraid; they've been told that they should be afraid of what will happen if they don't have police.

Defender I think there's going to have to be a lot of comfort with white discomfort in order for a real equitable solution or an equitable era to commence. I haven't personally experienced any response to white discomfort from white people other than to burn down whatever is making white people uncomfortable, no matter how good the person is. No matter what, if it's an employee, if it’s the client, whatever it is. To me, white discomfort is kind of like a no-go for a lot of spaces.

Defender Lately, my hope has been very little to none. I mean, it's very depressing, with what's going on with police officers and just the political climate in general. Police officers just have so much power in this country, and it's very hard to see what changes can be made. It feels like we've been taken back to the 1960’s, where we were out marching for civil rights all over again. And that was in a matter of less than four years, under Donald Trump’s presidency. If things get taken back 60 years in just a matter of a few years, we have such a long way to go.

I like to say a lot that Donald Trump is the president we deserved because a lot of people didn't think that this level of ignorance and racism existed. We were riding on Cloud Nine after we got a Black president and people were thinking, “Oh yeah, racism is over. We got a Black president now.” To follow that up with Donald Trump shows what Black folks have been saying the entire time, which is that this country is racist and its people in power are blatantly racist. And then to have the NYPD union endorse a president—which has pretty much never happened before—and that president be Donald Trump, is just a lot, man. It's very depressing.

So the short answer is that my hope is dwindling. I am hoping that we can try to turn some things around, but even the Democratic Party for me is just ehh…no. I don't really have hope in any party right now, so let's see what happens.

Defender No! I mean, to be honest, I just feel like this is foundational stuff. You plant a tree with rotting roots, all the fruit is going to be infected. You have to cut the tree down and start over. I mean, we've been doing this for over 400 years; so no, I don't think it's happening anytime soon. I just think we're going to have to figure out how to create systems in which to live, so that people can feel like there's some modicum of justice.

Have you ever been to the Equal Justice Memorial at Brian Stevenson’s Museum? That is a trip worth taking; it is an experience worth having. You go through that whole thing and you just come out. It starts with slavery and ends with mass incarceration and the criminal justice system. And you see how it's just the same thing and nothing has changed. It seems like you’ve walked so far thinking you really got somewhere, only to turn around and realize that you’ve only taken one step.

Defender I think I just have hope that people are not so quick to believe the cops just because they're cops. In terms of equitable treatment, not so much; but if we chip away at their credibility and their actions, I think that's a start.

Defender I'm kind of jaded, unfortunately. I mean, I will say that it's a little different than it has been before, but my concern is that it's still going to result in more of the same because we have things that remain to be seen. There are elections coming up, right? That's going to dictate a lot of what this all means. We're sort of in the middle of it, so it's kind of hard to say. As I said, I'm a bit jaded from life and from doing this job and seeing how things are. I will believe it when I see it. We're definitely seeing some changes in terms of the response to the violence and the response to the police misconduct. We're seeing some of it, but the concern that I have is that this is just the new lip service. If nothing changes, then it's just going to be the new way you sing the song….

One thing I'll also say is that when I saw that the [Milwaukee] Bucks protested a game [in 2020], this is something that I didn't hear a lot of the sports pundits and people talking about. They said, “Well, we can push the NBA and organizations to take racial justice seriously” and yada, yada, yada. They were like, “What the Bucks did in protesting was great, but we can cause more of an impact if we're out there playing.” That's what I kept hearing players saying; and sports pundits and cast were saying that if they played and earned money, they would able to put it into the community and fund these initiatives, etcetera, etcetera; and that's going to cause more of an impact.

And I don't think so. I think that that is wrongheaded. I think that it would be a bigger story if they were still not playing. I mean, I get it. People have their livelihoods; and just because they make millions of dollars a year doesn't mean that they’re fine with not playing. They're spending that money, and that's how it is: more money, more problems. I get that, but let's not try and pretend and say, “Oh, if we're playing, we can do blah blah blah.” No, man. If they weren’t playing then the billionaire owners’ payroll is going to start to dry up, and then they're going to put more pressure on their friends in Washington to do more. That would be more of an impact. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Defender Yes and no. I'm conflicted because I think many people do want drastic change from what has been done in recent times. I feel that many of our politicians, as well as older folks and even some people around my generation and stuff, cannot grasp a world of radical change when it comes to the police and the justice system. And I'm not saying I believe everyone has to be abolitionist or in that vein; but many people are far away from that position. So it makes me less hopeful that real extreme, radical change can happen.

However, I think I'm hopeful because I have to be hopeful that this shit can truly change one day, not just feeding us bullshit of “listening” and “hearing,” but then nothing really happens; or, “Oh, we're going to do reform,” but reform equals, we're gonna say officially something is banned that has already been officially banned. (Author laughs) I'm excited because, we do hear people talking about dealing and going around and breaking up police collective bargaining. And that's a big thing, especially in America, especially in a more “liberal” state in New York. It's a big thing. And while my progressiveness makes me wary of coming at collective bargaining, I think when it comes to police, it’s a necessary thing that we have to seriously look at and realize that it has provided them cover. In the law, they talk about slippery slope all the time; well, we’re at the fucking bottom. (Author laughs) We’re at quicksand now….

So I don't know. I'm mixed. I will say I like the progressive and radical voices that are calling for the very extreme change. And I like that it seems like more people are waking up to the idea that we can have a safe world without this kind of criminal system. We can have a safe world if we invest before people get caught up, if we invest at the beginning, if we invest in housing, education, income, wages, and all of that stuff. So that does give me hope.

But also I'm a bit wary because Americans don't get it popping like how we could. A part of it is because a lot of people buy into white supremacy and capitalism even when they pretend to be progressive. For example, even people like Jay Z and Beyoncé love to say, “Oh, y'all Black people complain, but y'all need to get your money up. That's how you beat this thing.” And it's like, no! You can't beat white supremacy and capitalism that way; that's not feasible for most people. (Author reacts) Yeah! Jay Z talking about, “We’re past kneeling” and stuff like that. Black Twitter has been dragging them for that shit. He released a song I think last week; I haven’t listened to that shit, because I’m tired of these rich Black people trying to tell us what to do. They cannot understand; they cannot relate. Then I heard that in the song, he said something like, “Y'all tweet on Twitter all day, but are you getting paid?” or some shit like that. That is insensitive as shit, because a lot of the critiques are very worthwhile critiques; and for you to turn around and say, “Oh, y'all just talking, but you don't get paid for tweeting” is insensitive….

It's ridiculous. Or apparently Beyoncé said something about rubber bullets bouncing off her. That’s insensitive. People have lost eyes, body parts, etc. And that's not to say I don't enjoy some aspects of their artistry. Sure I do. But they are not my revolutionaries, and they are not my leaders. And it's rough because unfortunately, they are many other Black people's leaders….

A lot of Black people complain about racism and white supremacy, but they miss the part about capitalism. You cannot have a capitalist society, at least the way that anyone around the world has done it so far, without some type of white supremacy. And with many of our Black leaders, it's not that they want to be free from that; they want to be able to get the spoils of it as well. And to me, that's problematic as hell; whether the overseer/master is white or Black, it is still a problem to me.

So things like that make me a little wary that we're going to get freedom in my lifetime. But I damn sure hope it happens.

What do you think of the call to “defund police”?

The vast majority of Defenders agree with the call to defund police, although the term “defund police” means different things to different people. A few responses from Defenders that are in support:

Defender I think it's great. I think a lot of people, liberals and conservatives, make straw arguments: “This messaging is bad, blah blah blah!” “We still want police, blah blah blah!” The whole point of the movement is to recognize how much money our governments are spending on policing. They’re generally the largest expenditure in any local government budget, not even including funding for civil liability and civil settlements for police misconduct. Defunding the police is about recognizing how much money we spend on that, in comparison to how much money our governments are spending on programs and resources that are actually proven to reduce crime and to reduce harm, such as health care, mental health treatment, housing and job training. The whole point of the movement is to recognize this disparity in funding and to redirect funding, redirect resources to things that can actually achieve the results that policing can’t.

It’s also about recognizing that the criminal legal system is not an ideal solution, and it's not any kind of solution for so many different kinds of harm that communities experience.

Defender I think that the calls to defund police are great, and this kind of goes to this belief that I have, which is that we're not going to see the change that we want to see in my lifetime…. I think that the kind of society that we want—where people are being treated fairly, and are not being abused by the police—requires that the police be defunded.

Ultimately, I think if the human race is going to survive, then we have to find a way to coexist and to solve our problems without it being conflict and war, and essentially what you have with police and civilians is war. The police say that they're here to protect and serve, but it doesn't look like that. It doesn't look like that when they come out on regular calls. It certainly doesn't look like that when they come out for protests and stuff like that. It looks like we're fighting, like we’re at war with our own police. In order for that to change, we need to move toward a less violent society. Defunding the police is required; it is something that's going to be necessary in order for that to happen….

Defender I believe in the idea of defunding the police, of restructuring our society so we don't have to have these people in our lives…. That word “police” to me means militarizing a neighborhood…. They're like local military, and they go into your neighborhood and they patrol to keep people in their place.

Defender I think that the calls to defund police are extremely accurate. They don't need any of the money that they have; all that money needs to go to schools [and other places of social value. We need to] abolish the police altogether. There's no reason to have policing the way that it's done at all, at all. It doesn't need to be this way. We need to start over. They shouldn't respond to 911 calls. Those calls should go to community-trained medical and social workers. Police shouldn't be responding to those.

The massive amount of police on the streets in New York are strictly for intimidation of certain neighborhoods and to protect property; we don't need that at all. Not that we need surveillance in any way, but it's all just unnecessary. I don't know why we think [that] if we don't have this, if we don't fund the police, then crime will be rampant. It's like, no, if you actually fund the programs that, in their absence, make people steal from Duane Reade, then you wouldn't have any of this ridiculous crime. If you fund education, you won't have kids [dropping out of] school….

We're not going to the root of any issue. We're simply throwing everybody in a cage. That’s crazy.

A few Defenders express reservations. One Defender thinks: “I think it’s a worthwhile thing to look into, but it’ll never happen for the same reason why they’ll never, probably, close prisons: Because it’s too many jobs that will be lost. Too many jobs….” Another Defender states: “I find them interesting. I'm a little split on it. I've thought about it a lot. I think what most people think about with respect to ‘defunding the police,’ which is eliminating the cops, is not a thing, because we need the police and because we need that structure of law and order. But we also need what's supposed to make the police great, which is community policing. We need police officers in the community working….” Adds another Defender: “I think that really the message should be about reallocating resources, putting more resources into the public schools, putting more resources into mental health. I don't think we should fully defund the police because—this may be an unpopular opinion—I think that we need police in all neighborhoods. Nobody wants to have people not being held accountable. There would be lawlessness if there were no police at all. But I want the police to be respectful. I actually want them to be courteous. I want them to be professional. I want them to treat people with respect….”

One Defender is wholeheartedly opposed to the idea:

That's the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard of in my life. Like, it's so dumb. Are you serious? Defund the police? Go ahead, get rid of the cops. What you got in your pocket? Now I'm taking your shit, because nobody’s coming after me; and now you gotta defend your shit. That's the exact beauty of society and the exact beauty of where we've advanced to: this ain't the wild west no more. You don't have to defend anything; that's what the cops are for. You get to just go to work, raise your kids, do all that other stuff…. Because people act like cops aren't necessary; and I'm like, what? Yeah, come stand on my block for five minutes and then tell me how you feel about that. Get smacked hard enough that you see stars. You figure it out….

Another Defender, while striking a different tone, says the following:

I think I might stand in the minority, because I think when people say, “Defund the police,” if we're talking about just what that means literally, I can't at this point believe that we could live in a society without some level of policing. There's so much unlearning that the community and everyone would have to do for us to actually have a society with absolutely no policing.

I absolutely believe in the essence of police defunding. I do believe that there is way too much funding and overreliance on police for everything…. I don't know how many times I've spoken to members of the community—parents in the community, grandparents in the community, family members—and explained to them: “Police officers are not a disciplinary tool against your child. You're having issues with your child and you want to discipline them, fine; but you cannot call police for that. That is not their function. They’re not there to discipline your child for you. They’re not there to mediate arguments.” But oftentimes, that's what they're utilized for.

I think that there's overreliance on police to solve issues that do not involve policing, and I think it’s because of the funding level. There are so many police officers, and at least the advertising is to call the police whenever you have a problem, whatever that problem may be. There is no alternative number to call. You could call maybe 311, or you could try to call the precinct directly versus calling 911; but it's still the police you're calling. So there's another level of unlearning, when you have parents who say, “My kid is acting up. I don't know what to do, so I called the cops.” So there's that unlearning we have to do, in terms of providing other resources and letting people know that policing is not the only way….

We've been trained and brainwashed to rely on the police to solve all of our issues, and they take full advantage of that by demanding more resources, by getting funding, and by abusing the overtime processing system. And increasing policing does not solve crimes by the way. I’m glad that there is more of a discussion about that. The police usually arrive after the matter. So the crime has already occurred.

A few more responses:

Defender I think they should defund. I think they’re given too much money, I think there’s way too many police on the street who all then have some quota to fulfill, so they’re out there harassing people. I hate when I see one car and there’s six cop cars. Why do you need six cop cars for one man? Even if you want to say, it’s four people in the car, so I wanna have back-up, ok; but why do you need fourteen cops for one man? I don’t get it. And it’s just too many of them that have nothing to do, and then they’re all talking about “serve and protect” and whatever the hell they claim (sucks teeth). I can’t. I cannot.

Defender Sure, needs to be done…. I have a lot of sympathy and experience with mentally ill people who end up in the criminal justice system, and I don't think the response should be police officers arresting, possibly hurting, or killing these people. So I think the money should be reallocated to mental health professionals, substance abuse programs, and job education training programs, so kids are less likely to be involved in illegal activity and will make money and support themselves. The budget of the NYPD is really big, and I think the money could be used better elsewhere. I think they should also get rid of these bad cops and cut salaries in those ways. So I'm actually happy by the numbers of cops that have been retiring and putting in their papers. I just hope that they don't go to some other jurisdiction and bust heads there, you know?

Defender It needs to happen. It’s that simple. It needs to happen. I'm not saying I'm against some type of system of accountability, because I think when people think about defunding the police or abolition, they feel that people are saying no one should have consequences for the harm they cause to others. That's not what it is. It's saying that we can implement other things to address those things; but also at the same time, and maybe even more importantly, we're going to try to address the root causes of those things before someone gets to that point….

You can't reform something that is accomplishing its goal. Police is there to further white supremacy and capitalism. That's why they're harsher on people rioting and looting than they are on fellow officers killing people who have not done anything. I don't think you can reform something that's poisoned all the way down. You need to completely scrap it and start over.

Defender I think that it's the right thing to do, and I think it's the worst name that anybody could ever come up with. (Author laughs) I was just having a conversation this weekend about this. Folks have to realize that for change to happen, you have to convince a lot of people that this change should happen. Most people—most Democrats and most Republicans—are moderate people. That's just who people are. So when you throw a slogan out to folks that says “defund police,” you are going to get a reaction that is not going to help your cause, because that sounds like, “Take all the money away from police, destroy the police force, and crime is going to run rampant.” So you're giving a tagline to the opponents that seems to support their opposition.

So, yes, I believe we should defund the police because you and I understand what that means: that's a reallocation of resources to allow police officers to do police work and allow other professionals to do what they're good at doing. So when I call 911 because my mentally ill brother is having a manic moment and I need help, professionals who can help with that—psychologists, social workers, de-escalation experts or whatever—arrive unarmed to help me and to help my brother, not police showing up with guns and tasers who end up tasing or killing him.

So you and I understand what defund the police means, and I support it; but we have to change what we call it, because you will never get a politician to sign on to ‘defund the police.’ It's political suicide. So that's what I think about it.

What are your thoughts about the Department of Corrections?

Defenders’ thoughts about the New York City Department of Corrections vary. Some Defenders express sympathy for the job corrections officers (COs) have. One Defender explains: “On the one hand, it's an extremely, extremely difficult job…. I’ve seen people in the punitive segregation unit, and all you hear is people banging on steel doors all day. I was there for about two hours, and I felt like I would have lost my mind. So I get it: part of the problem is you have people locked behind a door for 23 hours in the day. I know I myself would lose my mind too, banging on the door and doing all kinds of crazy shit, because human beings are not meant to be locked in a little space for hours at a time. And then someone across the hallway is threatening to kill you and this one is acting up; there is all this crazy stuff going on all day long. So it's an extraordinarily stressful job.” Concurs another Defender: “It's not a place I like to go. I don't think anybody can say, ‘It's a good place.’ It's a difficult job that the correctional officers have.” Another Defender offers this take:

I think it was a good thing that solitary confinement was banned because all the psychological studies say it's bad for you; and it'll turn a person that's never had any mental illnesses into a person with a mental illness. But on the other hand, I feel like the powers that be that criticize Corrections have not spent two seconds with the inmate population. I remember the COs were really uptight when solitary confinement got taken out, and then their hands got kind of tied in terms of being physical with the kids. And I said to one of the COs, “The thing that kills me about a lot of liberals is that these kids are the kids that they avoided like the plague when they were growing up. They never had a conversation with [these kids]. They were told by their parents that these kids were no good, and that's how they lived their lives. Now they're adults, and they want to jump back in and try to have a relationship with them. They don't even know what they don't know. They just don't know anything. They don't know where the kids are coming from. They don't know where the kids are going. They don’t know how to talk to them, and they’re unrealistic about what to do.”

Most other Defenders are less forgiving. One Defendant states: “Psychotic. Corrections officers are scary, like they are actually scary. The NYPD is creepy and awful; but with COs, there's like a perverse enjoyment they have from watching people suffer. I used to work on Rikers when I was at my last job, and I would interact with COs. I had to take trainings with them. There is something deeply wrong with COs; they scare me…. They really get off on making pain happen to other people, like they torture other folks just for the fun of it, even people who aren't incarcerated.” Another Defender states: “They have like a DMV level of competence. There is a lot of work that's not happening, and a lot of people taking advantage of people, including my clients who are vulnerable and are in their custody.” Another Defender states: “I don't have a lot of respect for them. I shouldn't say a lot, but there are officers that do illegal things there. I think they turn a blind eye to a lot of things that go on in lockup. I think some of them even promote bad things. I know I had a client who basically was forced to fight for the entertainment of the corrections officers and the other people in lockup. There are those kind of things, just really bad experiences like that. So, I'm not really in love with DOC.” Another Defender gives this answer:

I think over the years there have been a number of exposés; usually it's the result of somebody ending up dead when you get a sense of the really deep-seated culture of violence and corruption that exists within Corrections. So I think it's incredibly harmful, because they are so isolated, and it's really only these moments when something horrible happens that we know about it. I think a few years back, when they revealed the whole program where they were basically turning incarcerated people against each other and benefiting from it…. They had sort of a hierarchical system of letting some people who were incarcerated rule over others, and making some detainees have to answer to the detainees they put in charge. And so [the officers] were kind of at the top of this hierarchy and deputizing some folks who are detained in really violent ways. So I think that kind of stuff just shows you that it’s so deep-seated, it’s long-lasting, and is an even more shrouded culture perhaps than the NYPD. That is, to me, incredibly dangerous.

One thing several Defenders note is how the majority of officers working in jails are Black and Brown. Defenders have various reactions to this fact. Some are understanding. One Defender notes: “One of the things that's really different about Corrections is that the overwhelming majority of officers are Black and Hispanic. I met a lot of good people there, a lot of people who came from being on either public assistance or damn near public assistance to getting jobs; and for them, it was kind of like this life changing thing. A lot of them were also extremely disillusioned about what happens inside, despite a lot of what we hear. And they see the biggest problem as the Department of Corrections administration; and there was a lot of truth to that because there are a lot of things they would try to do with people inside that the administration pretty much stood in the way on.” Adds another Defender: “So I have a lot of mixed feelings about the Department of Corrections. I have friends who are correctional officers. I mean, I'll say acquaintances; I guess you say acquaintances, maybe not friends. They are Black people who want an equitable future as well, and they went to work for the Department of Corrections because it was a great job with job security and all those things. The people that I know have not been, as far as I know, actively involved in mistreating clients and making their lives living hell.”

For other Defenders, the fact that COs are majority nonwhite is particularly problematic. One Defender states: “A lot of the COs in New York City, sadly, are Black and Brown; and the captains and higher ups are people that are white, for the most part. So it's a complex and disturbing situation, and it's complex for a lot of different reasons. A lot of the COs come out of the same neighborhoods as our clients, as the people that they're detaining. So a lot of the violence that they perpetuate against the people that they detain come from this whole sort of social conflict that arises from them now being a part of a system that is detaining someone with whom they probably grew up around. They might not have been friends, and they feel that they're being tested and their authority is being challenged. And so that leads to a lot of abuses and human rights violations.” Another Defender states: “It is frustrating when I see both Black and white corrections officers treating our clients like crap, which I see a lot of….”

A few more responses:

Defender Oh, they're trash. The organization itself is trash. Now as far as individual officers, of all of the law enforcement officers I've dealt with, I've actually had the best interactions with corrections officers. I know that that might be an outlier, but whenever I talk to corrections officers, they are in my experience—and I know I've dealt with a very small percentage—they've been helpful in getting me in contact with my client. I've had clients report that if corrections officers were on the street instead of the average police officer, they probably wouldn't have been arrested. I think it is because they deal with that population more closely; they have an actual opportunity to see them as people.

Now I know there are bad ones. I've heard all the reports, I've had clients tell me that their cellmate was treated poorly. But for the people I’ve represented, they've been good interactions.

Defender DOC upstate I think is very different than DOC New York City. I think with DOC upstate and DOC Nassau County, you get a lot of really racist officers who look at themselves as law enforcement, as an extension of the police department; and they look at all of our clients, whether it's pre-trial or post-trial, as criminals.

I think DOC in the city is slightly different, and I think it's because of the population of the officers that are in the DOC. Now, that's not to say that there aren't a lot of racist officers because they are. It's not to say that there aren't a lot that think of our clients only as criminals, because there definitely are those. But I do feel like there are more officers who are sympathetic to our clients. I've run into a lot of officers who knew my clients or knew their families, officers who knew them from the neighborhood in a way that I don't think you find with upstate prisons; and I think that's a good for a lot of our clients, because they actually see our clients as people and recognize that “pre-trial” means they're presumed innocent.

Defender My feelings are mixed because an overwhelming amount of the officers are people of color, are Black people. I don't know the statistics, but I’m just going by what I see and what I've seen over the years. But, they are part of a system that was not designed to help Black and Brown people in any way. There's no way that individual corrections officers that do not agree with a lot of what's happening can individually change the system. In some ways, I feel like they're kind of stuck. I know one corrections officer who's a minister; and I remember him years ago breaking down in church and just saying, “I can't do this anymore. This is ridiculous.” And he quit.

So that's my feeling. It's part of a system that's designed to keep Black and Brown people down. At the same time, I understand the Black and Brown people who become corrections officers…. But I know some public defenders are like, “Fuck 'em all.” I don't have that orientation.

Defender Like 50 Cent said, the Department of Corrections ain’t correcting shit.¹⁵ (Author laughs) Now it's interesting because in the city, all the corrections officers and the inmates come from the same block. So they grow up together, and they know each other, they know each other’s brothers and sisters and mamas and aunts and all that. So the relationship is different. State Corrections is completely different; the inmates and the COs have no relationship with each other, except for that cell block. So the relationships are tougher.

One of the problems that I've had with corrections officers was when they started using pepper spray and the MK-9¹⁶ and all that other stuff. I always felt that that was dangerous. And to be able to use weapons of war inside of a prison cell was just asking for trouble….

Defender I'm probably going to get in a lot of trouble for saying this, but I'm going to say it: during slavery, there was hierarchy amongst the slaves. If you got into the overseers’ good graces, then you could become his lieutenant or his general. He would deputize you to keep their slaves in line.

It's not by accident that we have so many Black COs. It's a lucrative job in the city. It's the way a lot of Black people have come up. You don't go to college and you don't get some sort of a degree; but that doesn't mean that you are not intelligent or educated or smart. So I sit down, I take a test, I answer the questions; and then they reward me with a position. I get a gun and a badge…. It's a way to put kids through college. It's a way to own a home. It's a way to take care of elderly family members…. I know a corrections officer that told me that whatever an officer makes in the last three to five years, half of that becomes that officer’s pension for the rest of that officer’s life. So if I do crazy overtime in my last three years and net $150,000, $200,000 annually—I'm just making up numbers—I can have a six-figure pension for the rest of my life. And if I'm a young corrections officer, and I work for 25 years or however long it takes to make the pension, I can go do something else and still have that money coming in. So I’m balling! I’m winning! My grandkids are going to college off that money if I use it right.

That's what happened on the plantation to a lesser degree. If the overseer deputizes me to [lord over] their slaves, I tell their slaves what to do; and even if they’re not acting right, I’m taking that off his plate. So when dinner time comes, or it’s time to get a pass, or it’s time for me to pick a wife, or my kids are not being sold off, I'm winning.

With that said, the thing that doesn't get them off the hook a lot of times is the same sort of exhaustion that I talk about with this whole system…. This brother [I knew who is a CO] grew up in the hood right there with me and you, right there in the park with us, right there in the same school with us, the same rec center, the whole shit. And then the overseer says, “You go on in there and take care of them slaves.” And all of a sudden, the mindset is, well, I gotta preserve me. So when I'm in here, whatever sort of oppressive, violent behavior I mete out is to preserve me. And when you talk to them or specifically him about that, he tells you things like, “You don't know what it feels like in there to be a CO. Like, I'm getting spat on. I'm getting beat on. They’re trying to take my spray and spray me in the face. They grabbed my weapon. I gotta go in there and I gotta protect myself.” That's the same conversation from the plantation. So the mindset is them against us, and that is perpetuated.

You hear things like, “Yeah, and then I had moved the body.” And I’m like, was the sister dead? I mean, she walked into the courtroom. She was breathing, moving up, talking. But it’s the whole buying-in into this system; and I don't know if that's what they feel like they have to do in order to make the $200,000 to retire with every year; but that still doesn’t get them off the hook, because life is about choices….

I think about COVID; and when COVID hit the jail, everybody was in there together. Inmates and COs were in it together. So now we both have to overcome; and the best thing we can do is try to team up and protect each other, because this is bigger than us. This ain't about who got the gun, who got the spray, who got the cops. This is bigger than us. This is way bigger than us…. Everybody's being affected by this thing; there's no hierarchy in that. So now when we’re all in the same boat, how do we behave differently? And is there a lesson that can be learned from that now when the boat is up, when we've gotten off the boat? When COVID is gone, have we created a system that would've been ideal? …

Defender I don't think I really have many thoughts on the Department of Corrections. At least in the detention center specific to this borough, I know that they've been pretty respectful to our clients. You have some that are not; but for the most part, I think that they're respectful.

Obviously I think it's different when you go to Rikers. On Rikers, those COs are special. (Author laughs) And I'm not saying all of them; but I remember going there a couple times maybe a year and a half ago, because I had a gun case I was working on with another attorney. The COs are assholes…. Going to Rikers those times did something to my spirit; I was like, this is like slavery. We don't have to have an us-versus-them type of mentality; but I feel like some of the COs have that. Maybe that's how they're wired; maybe that's what they need to do to survive, to get through the job. But I felt like it was like slavery. I felt the tension, and I was there in a suit. I thought to myself, if there's tension with me, a “professional,” and they know I'm an attorney, then how are they treating the people who come here who have been arrested and are incarcerated? How are they treating the loved ones and the family members or the friends of people who are coming to visit them? …

If I can help it, I would never go to Rikers again. But I know that that's the job, and I will go if need be; but it just really did something to my spirit, and it reminded me of slavery.

FN 15: This a line from rapper 50 Cent's song Maybe We Crazy.

FN 16: MK-9 is a powerful pepper spray used by law enforcement, military personnel and, apparently, corrections officers.

What are your thoughts about probation and parole?

Generally, Defenders see probation and parole as mechanisms to entrap their clients. One Defender states: “Get rid of them. Probation and parole are why we continue to have the level of recidivism we have, because those really minute technical violations put so many Black and Brown people back into jails and prisons.” Another Defender agrees: “It's a jail. Parole is jail on the streets. Probation is jail on the streets. Anytime your liberty is perpetually restricted in any way, shape or form, [you're in jail]. You can't leave the five boroughs. Your parole regulations say you can't live anywhere else but this supportive housing residence, or you can't live anywhere else besides this place, or you have a particular curfew. Parole is jail on the streets. And anytime you step halfway out of line, you have parole officers who have the ability to snatch your freedom, to put you back in prison…. I've had clients who’ve had offers of, let’s say five years’ probation on a felony plea or six months jail on this misdemeanor plea. And I've had clients say, ‘I'm going to take that six months on the misdemeanor. I’d rather do that because I'm not going get through probation.’ They're making a smart calculation….”

With the Department of Probation specifically, Defenders largely find them to be ineffective. One Defender states: “They don't do anything. I think they're just there. They give the client enough rope to hang themselves and don’t have a great role in helping our clients.” Another Defender states: “Man, they are some of the most confusing people on earth. (Author laughs) Like on the one hand, they give all lip service to the idea of helping a person get their life in order. Then on the very other hand, they're hitting them with technical violations for not calling at 9 p.m. and all of this other stuff. I've had bad interactions. It feels like there's ingrown hypocrisy in that job.” Another Defender notes: “In my experience, it makes it very difficult for clients to be successful on probation because of the restrictions that they put on people. And they're not necessarily understanding of clients, of life circumstances, and of life situations where maybe they can't make appointments, or maybe they have to work and not do a drug program because they have kids that need to eat. And it's held against them and used as violations; and ultimately, they're going to end up in prison. So probation, I think, is just a lot of times more trouble than it's worth.” Another Defender gives this response:

I think that Probation doesn't offer the services that they really should. They're really supposed to help our clients. It's really supposed to be more than just a leash. It's supposed to be a way for our clients to really change their lives after they've been convicted of something and to be able to get services so that they can improve; and Probation doesn't do that. They monitor them, but they don't really help them. And I feel like I've had clients who were on probation who are like, “I just really need this” or “I just really need that” or “I asked if they can help me find a counseling/drug treatment program; and they keep saying, ‘yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,’ but they never do it.” And that I think is a shame because our clients who are on probation, the ones who are asking for help, recognize that they need it.

One Defender tells this story:

I've had many mini battles with probation officers. One in particular in the Bronx seemed focused on trying to “beat” me by violating my clients. Her reports about my client would say things like, “He wasn't going to his GED program” or “He didn't do this” or “He didn't do that” She would make these very sweeping statements about what people are doing or not doing. Meanwhile, I called where he's taking his GED classes, and the guy overseeing the program said, “Yeah, he's coming. He's here.” So I’m wondering, did she call, did she not call, did she call and not get an answer, did she call and talk to someone else and they didn't recognize his name? There was no nuance, no trying to find out what was happening, or anything. Meanwhile, of course, the client is saying, “I am going,” and I have a probation officer saying, “No you didn't.” Then I called and the program supervisor said, “Yeah, he's coming. He was here yesterday.”

So we had a court appearance, and the probation officer just went on and on to the judge about my client allegedly not going to his program. I let her finish and then said, “Judge, I spoke to the gentleman yesterday. He says my client's attending. In fact, I have his number right here.” The judge says, “Well, you and the probation officer go in the back, use the room, and call him on speaker phone so she could hear. We do that, and the program supervisor says, “Yeah, he's coming.” We came back and told the judge. The probation officer was furious at me. Furious. Not embarrassed, unless she was furious because she was embarrassed. There was no reflection of what she could have cost this young man. Back then, he was only 17, probably 17 and a half. Like, why? There was no understanding of how her advocacy could change this young man’s life forever. No insight.

After that, she wasn't humbled. It was like, now she has to beat me. It turned into this very personal thing against me. And she did this for several clients as well. But she never did “beat” me, as she was clearly trying to do, because she wasn't organized, wasn't that thorough, and was just very sweeping. I thought to myself, wow. What is she doing to other people? What is she doing to other clients?

Some Defenders find probation to be a necessary evil sometimes. One Defender notes: “I have to tell you, I have mixed feelings. I know there are times when we're forced to take probation because that's the only way we could avoid jail time. But I've been in situations where I've told a client not to take the probation and to go to trial, because I thought we got a shot. We will have discussed it for a long, long, long time; and we've gone to trial and we've gotten acquittals.” Answers another Defender: “I guess it's a necessary evil. I don't have a lot of opinion one way or another on them. I don't think they're effective; but if you want to keep tabs on someone who you've released or that you've decided not to put in jail, I guess that's the best way to do it. I don't think of them as being corrupt. I do think of them as being lazy…. It's also a popularity game. If they like you, you can get by; you can get by with bloody murder, and no one's going to check you on it. And if they don't like you, you can get a parking ticket and they're going to come after you.”

That said, many Defenders think that Parole is far worse than Probation. One Defender states: “I think Parole is worse than Probation, maybe because the seat is in Albany, maybe because they have these proceedings on Rikers. But my dealings with Parole leadership have actually been far more terrifying than with Probation leadership…. My experience has been that Parole is whiter and more conservative. I think we've all seen parole hits¹⁷ for nonsense. Certainly, when I was there, you could breathe wrong and all of a sudden you have a 90-day hit.” Another Defender gives this analogy: “It’s like walking into your kids' room after they're supposed to clean up the room, and you're looking to make sure that the bed's made and everything is in place. Some of the officers I hear are definitely like that. They're not looking for what good, positive changes the individual has made as they have come back into the community; they're just looking for them to fuck up. It’s like they’re expecting them to fuck up, and they’re just looking for it.” One Defender expounds on parole:

Parole was a lot more diabolical than probation though, because under the laws of parole revocation, the state has the right to re-incarcerate them at any time. So when someone is accused of violating parole, they will be rearrested and sent back to jail; and they'll be locked up for weeks, sometimes months, before it can be adjudicated as to whether they violated parole or not. While that happens, they'll be sitting on Rikers, or sitting in one of the borough facilities that the Department of Corrections operates.

There were many instances where I represented clients who had disagreements with their romantic partners, and the romantic partners understood how parole worked. So as retribution, [some] would call and say, “This person who was on parole hit me” or “This person did something in violation of parole” with the understanding that they would be immediately arrested and put in jail, and that it would take weeks to sort out.

One of the ways that I explain to clients whenever I met them before representing them is that they have to think about parole as just being in jail on the street. It's a natural human response, after having actually been in prison, to come home and feel like, “Oh, I'm back out here. I'm free.” But you're not free. They have the ability to search the areas that you inhabit without any probable cause. They have the ability to demand drug tests. Whenever they feel like it, they can search the residences of your family members and loved ones that you live with so long as you have access to the living room, the kitchen, the den where your little brother sleeps, or wherever; if you have access to those areas, they can search it. And they often show up at families’ residences at all hours of the night, busting down the doors; and they have a cooperative relationship with the NYPD.

So police officers, detectives, and the like often employ parole officers in the department or division of parole—they call it the Department of Corrections and Community Supervision (DOCCS) now—to help them arrest people; and they use the access that parole officers have as a way to circumvent the requirements that the police department would normally have for a citizen that isn't on parole, if that makes sense. So let’s say they want to conduct some sort of search, but they don't have the requirements for a warrant; but that person's on parole. So what would they do? They'll contact the parole officer [PO], and they'll say, “We suspect that client has narcotics and that he's selling it out of the house that he's staying in. We don't have enough probable cause for a search warrant, but we wanna search the premises.” The PO can do that because the person's on parole. So the PO will go there, and usually the cops are right there with them.

So parole is just way more diabolical than probation could ever be.

Even worse than parole is post-release supervision. One Defender explains the difference:

Oh God…. Now you used to have parole and now you have parole and post-release supervision. Parole is where you do part of your time in prison and you have a remainder that you're out on, and you're coming back into society. With parole, if you get rearrested, the parole time keeps ticking, so you can always get off of parole. If you have two years of parole, that's going to go away in two years no matter what; whether you’re doing well or you're not doing well, that's going to go away.

Post-release supervision is different because with post-release, if you get rearrested while on post-release supervision, the clock stops. So let's say you have two years of parole. You’re six months out of prison, and you had a case where you got rearrested and you stay in jail for another six months. Then you are out again. A year of parole has gone, whether you're in jail or not; but on post-release supervision, the six-month period would've been suspended. So let's say you did six months for shoplifting and you get out. Now, you still have a year and a half left on post-release supervision. So it just keeps you under the supervision of the criminal justice system longer.

If you really get into trouble and then you have post-release supervision—let's say you have five years post-release supervision—you get out, you stay out for a year, you get rearrested. You're in jail. You do three years of prison. You get out, and you still have four years of the first post-release and now an additional five years of post-release supervision for the newest conviction. So now you've got nine years.

It's just like, you're not free. You're under the jurisdiction of the criminal justice. It's like you're a slave; you can't be free of these people. So I like parole much better than post-release supervision. Post-release just keeps people under the jurisdiction of the criminal justice system forever; and you never get free of them. I guess you could get terminated early, but the odds of that happening are not that great….

It's just awful. There are restrictions on what you can do with your life. Can you move? What kind of job can you have? Do you have to be home by nine o'clock? Does somebody have to call you? Do you have to check in and answer the phone? Are you home? Does probation or parole get to come into your house and search it? You lose so many rights as a parolee. Under parole, I don't know if you even have a Fourth Amendment right anymore. Can your house be searched without probable cause? Your rights are so limited under these things. And this is the New Jim Crow, right? Mass incarceration.

One Defender offers this take:

I think that they have a lot of power. A good parole officer or a good probation officer can literally change the trajectory of your client's life; and so can a bad one. I think it's one of the scariest aspects of our client's supervision under the criminal system, because they have so much power to incarcerate your client, to search their homes without a warrant, to do all these things. Like, they can literally come in and pluck your client out of their life and put them in jail. And what, then you have a parole hearing? Okay. So?

At least with probation, probation officers say they want to do this thing, but the court is the one that has the power to do it or to not do it…. With parole, you got an administrative law judge (ALJ); and there is almost this presumption that this parole violation occurred, that this person on parole is brought before this parole court because they violated parole. And it's now just a question of how long they're going to go back to prison for….

FN 17: A “parole hit” is just another way to say that a person was deemed to have violated parole and therefore sentenced to serve time in jail or prison.

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