Chapter 8 - Clients

Defenders offer their thoughts about the people they represent.

How do you feel about your clients generally?

Of all the players in the criminal judicial system, the one set of players Defenders across the board like, love, and respect are the clients, the persons accused of committing crimes and offenses against society. Perhaps the biggest reason why is because Defenders identify with clients better than any other player. One Defender explains: “Honestly, part of me identifies with my clients a lot easier than I identify with my coworkers, and that's based on my own personal experiences and life choices and paths.” Another Defender agrees: “I feel like they're regular people that happened to get in trouble. They're just like me. Something happened in their families or their significant other in their lives, and they fell on hard times. I don't consider them to be any different than me. I've been in trouble; I've been arrested before; so I understand what happens. So to me, they're just regular people.” Another Defender states: “I view them as an extension of myself, as an extension of my family. I have family that has been involved in the criminal justice system, not in New York, but in another state. When I'm thinking about the outcome for a client, I normally think, what would I want to happen in this case if this were my brother who I love very much?”

Many Defenders see their clients as family. One Defender states: “I try to treat my clients as if they were a family member. That's how I kind of view them, and what I mean by that is that the advice that I'm going to give to them is advice that I would give to someone who was close to me. I never want to cheat them in terms of my representation. So I'm always viewing my client as a family member. I really do. I really do care for my clients. I want them to come out of the criminal justice system a better person, with opportunities to pursue a good livelihood and take care of their family.” Another Defender remarks: “They remind me of my family. Some do, some more than others, but they’re just people I went to kindergarten with or high school with. They just had different paths and different issues that popped up in their life…. My clients are hilarious. I love hanging out with them. They’ve had hard lives, and they try to make the best of it with the little resources that they have.”

Many Defenders note how working with clients provides the motivation to continue doing the work despite the stresses of the job. One Defender states: “My clients are the reason I do this work. They're literally the only thing that keeps me going on days where I just want to quit or I'm completely over working with obnoxious white people who are insistent on being racist and engaging with microaggressions, etcetera. I love my clients. I give my clients love and respect, and my clients give me love and respect.” Another Defender concurs: “I like my clients. They are the reason why I do this work. I like interacting with them, I like helping them, I like talking to them. I like trying to help them understand what's going on from a legal perspective, helping them as much as I can. I wish that I could help them more. And I wish that I had more time to do everything for them.” Adds another Defender: “Generally, I love my clients; and my interactions with them generally make me happy with the work I chose. This is cool…. Of course, you have hurdles and rough relationships sometimes; but generally, I really do like and enjoy my clients as their own people. I love the person-to-person interactions.”

Defenders see their clients as bigger than just the case; they see them as ordinary people and as members of their community. One Defender explains: “I'm a real believer in a model that Bryan Stevenson follows, and I have a t-shirt to that effect: ‘Each human being is more than the worst thing they've ever done.’ And I believe that. No matter how horrible the crime they're charged with, there's more to this human being than that act. I think that to me is the crux of what our defense should be motivated to be: to look into what that human being is all about, where they come from, how they became who they are.” Another Defender notes: “I enjoy working with my clients, and the reason why I enjoy working with my clients is not only because I enjoy working with my clients individually, but because I can work with my clients as a whole. That means I also work with their parents, their family, their community. Some are hard; it's hard at first to establish that trust and that relationship. But that doesn't stop me from trying.” Adds another Defender: “I've maintained relationships after cases are over. My clients are my work, but not just my work, if that makes sense. They are people at the end of the day, and I hope to treat them always as such.” One Defender gives this answer:

I mean, it was my community. The clients just felt like people that grew up with me, or people in my neighborhood; and my connection to the clients was unbelievable. Like, oh God. I’ll give you a story that you might want to edit out. When I was maybe a second-year attorney, I was on the phone one night with my cousin; and we were talking about growing up and being teenagers. Eventually the conversation steered towards the girl that he had his first sexual experience with. We talked about that, laughed about it, reminisced about that time period, blah, blah, blah.
The next day I was catching in court;¹ and whose name gets called? Ms. First-Sexual Experience.” I said, “Oh my God.” When she walked through the well, I looked at her and I said, “Do I look familiar to you?” She looked at me, and she said, “Kind of.” I said, “You used to date my cousin. Your cousin and my cousin were homies.” And she goes, “Oh yeah.” ….
I also remember this one client, the older in a set of twins. He got into problems and he had a probation violation. I walk into court, and I was doing a catch. I look out into the audience, and a woman looks at me and calls my name. And it was one of my mother's closest homies; me and her twins sons grew up together literally from diapers. It was funny how there were just so many of those personal connections between me and people. And these are the clients; and sometimes it would be my colleagues’ clients, and they would know me. A lot of people would see me chummy with some of the rough dudes; and they'd look and say, “How do you know him?” And I'm like, “Man, me and him go back in the day when we were little.”

As with all people, many Defenders like some (most) clients and dislike some (few) clients. One Defender remarks: “There are clients that I dislike, that I find to be obnoxious, arrogant, mean, etc. But otherwise, I have good relationships with them.” Another Defender notes: “Some you have a little bit more empathy and sympathy for than others, given how they're living or whatever situation they are in. Some can be a pain in the neck. So it varies.” Another Defender states: “There are some clients that I really like that are in really, really difficult circumstances; and it just makes me angry. There are some clients who I think made some really, really poor choices; and that's kind of frustrating. But most of my clients I like and have a good working relationship with. There are some that I didn't like, but most of them I do.” One Defender offers this answer:

Generally, I like most of my clients. You know there's always gonna be a few where I'm just like, oh my gosh, I pray you retain [a private attorney]. The moment they say, “Should I get a real lawyer for this?” I am like, “Sir, if you got the money, you really should. This is a serious case. You really should hire. You know I'm supposed to be for someone who doesn't have two nickels to rub together. So, if you think you can afford an attorney, you should go hire one.” I used to get offended by that, when they ask, “Should I hire a real lawyer?” I’d be like, “What you trying to say? I'm not a real lawyer? I went to law school! I passed the bar the first time around! What?” Now, I'm just like, “Yeah, you should go ahead.” Some people say, “I heard that a private attorney can get some better deals.” And I’m like, “They might be able to! You know you might want to try that. The clock is ticking, so the quicker they can get on, the quicker they can start working on your case. I'll send them the paperwork.” …
So I would say about 80% of my clients I really, really like. And then there’s the 20% where it’s like, Lord give me strength. I had one client one time, and I had to have a colleague cover my case because I couldn't be there. I wrote in the coverage note, “He might try to ask for a new attorney. Do not fight it! DO NOT FIGHT IT!” And then the file comes back to me, and I'm like, what the hell, man? And my colleague came back and told me, “Oh, that client hates you,” and I'm like, “The feeling is mutual! So why is he still here?”

Defenders have great respect for clients. One Defender gives this answer:

I feel like they're incredibly important to me whether they're assholes or whether they're the best client I ever have. I feel like they're very important to me, and they have placed their trust in me. God, that is such a responsibility. Again, whether they're assholes or whether they're Mother Teresa, they have placed their trust in me to take care of them. To me it’s like a doctor: I mean, you go to your doctor's office and you tell your doctor this, that, and the other; and your doctor's job is to take care of you to make sure that you're well.
That's the same way with me. My clients have come to me and have said, “I am turning my life over to you in regard to this trouble I'm in. I'm dependent on you to make the right decisions, to do what it is you need to do.” That is an awesome responsibility; and unfortunately, a lot of people don't take it that way, I think. And it's to the detriment of their clients.
Know the gravity of what it is that your clients expect and need from you.

Another Defender offers this response:

I really liked my clients. I thought they were remarkably resilient, given the amount of over-policing and the many systems in their lives. I learned a lot from them. I remember one time we were on trial and my client who was supposed to prepare to testify. He didn’t show up for prep; I have travelled from another borough just to prep him, and he just didn't show up for prep. And I just remember calling him and being like, “We're on trial and this is serious! You need to be here!” And he's like, “We're on trial, and you need to not take shit so serious, [counselor]. Like this is actually my life.” And I was like, he's right. Like this might be the last weekend he has, and maybe he doesn't want to sit with me in the office practicing how to testify.
He actually ended up not showing up at all, but we won anyway, so it was kind of a good decision all around, I guess. But it offered me some reflective time as well to think about, like, am I also thinking about how I'm using my time? And I definitely had a habit of overworking, but also not balancing well. And the fact that my client, who was facing prison time, was making choices consistent with maximizing happiness was a lesson that I often learned from some of my clients. I learned not just what it is to embrace and define your own integrity, but that sometimes, irrespective of the consequences, you need to do you. And so I feel like I also learned a lot, but I really enjoyed my clients mostly.

Often, the respect and love Defenders show to clients are reciprocated. One Defender answers: “Some clients I’ve come to really like. I’m curious about how they're doing and things after the case is over. Occasionally, a client will text me out of the blue and wish me happy holidays and things like that. Some are very appreciative, even when you haven't done much. Like I find that a lot of the clients whose cases get dismissed by operation of the process, through no work of my own, will say, ‘I got the best lawyer ever!’ And it’s like, I didn't do anything but stand and look pretty.” Another Defender shares: “I have some of the best clients, and their appreciation is gratifying for me. That's what makes my work so much more endearing, because of that appreciation they show you. It may not be at the time; but when you get that card, when you get those flowers, when you get that thank-you note, or when they see you somewhere and they say, ‘Thank you so much for giving me my freedom,’ that’s what makes you feel good. You’re like, ‘Whew; I’m doing something right.’”

A few more responses:

Defender Generally, I try to keep my feelings out of it. I don't know how else to describe it because I don't want to bring any type of bias or any type of preconceived judgment towards them. So when I first meet them, I want to hear them out exactly and meet them where they are. I want to hear them out, hear their whole story without any input, and then we go from there. So when I first meet a client, I don't have any type of feeling towards them at first. Or at least I try to keep my feelings out of it first.

Defender I mean, I love my clients.

Defender I feel horrible for a lot of our clients. There are some clients that make you sometimes regret doing this type of work. But for the most part, I would say 95% of our clients are very grateful, and they are scared and unsure. Even people who are familiar with the criminal justice process are still trying to navigate it and have a lot of confusion. So there's a lot of frustration in dealing with our clients; but I just feel like I have an obligation to help my client. That's how I feel about them….
I also think the clients challenge us to continuously reevaluate ourselves and our humanity, because especially when you're doing this [job for so] long, it's so easy to fall into routine. It's so easy to get frustrated with the work we're doing if we feel like we're putting an effort in and our clients are not “holding up their end of the bargain.” It kind of forces you to reevaluate and think about the complexities of people's lives, because I think in the criminal justice system there's an attempt to oversimplify people's lives. It’s easy to think, okay, you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing because you don't want to, or you don't care, or this, that or another. It's easy to get into that thought process because there is the frustration, but the reality is people's lives are complex….

Defender I generally enjoy my clients. I think that they have interesting stories to tell. I think that there are a lot of different, varying personalities. I call them my own individual little snowflakes because no two snowflakes are the same. Generally I would say I enjoy representing at least 90 to 95% of my clients.

Defender I don’t always like my clients, but I love my clients.

Defender I mean, I like some of them. Some of them are assholes. I try to be reserved. I try to be professional as possible; but sometimes they push you and they think stuff is sweet, and you have to remind them very nicely that they don’t have to like me, but I just need them to work with me. We're not family, we're not friends. Like, I'm trying to do my best for you, but it's not going to be too much of me trying to convince you that I’m competent. The energy that I'm taking to do that I could be putting into your case, or I can put into a client that would appreciate it. So if you don’t want a public defender on the case, we’re not married. Bye! Make that application to the judge.
That's the way I feel. Before, I used to try to convince them [that I'm competent]. I don't do that anymore.

FN 1: “Catching” is just another way of saying that an attorney is doing a traffic shift. See footnote 6 in the previous chapter for an explanation of “traffic.”

What is the racial makeup of your clients?

The most common answers to this question are either “majority Black” or “majority Black and Brown.” One Defender states: “I view a lot of Brown people as Black people, so I would say 98% Black. Two percent white.” Another Defender notes: “I’ll just say this: In my seven years of practice, I have probably had five white clients. (Pause) Well, certainly under ten. It might be six, but it’s definitely not been more than ten.” Another Defender observes that “if I had to, I could probably count the amount of white clients I've had on my hands, maybe two hands. But the bulk are Black and Latino.” States another Defender: “Mostly Black men. I have probably a handful of Latino males, one white guy, one Asian guy. If I'm just thinking about my caseload right now, actually I have two—no, one—white guy. Yeah. One white guy. So yeah, unfortunately it's predominantly Black males. A couple of women, but not many. Black women.” Another Defender recalls: “Black and Latino. And of the four or five white clients that I’ve had in my years or representation, two died during the course of my representation from drug overdose.”

Some Defenders give borough-specific answers. One Defender answers: “Majority Black and Hispanic. I think in my career, I've maybe represented like 30 white people, and some of them were repeat customers. On Staten Island, you'd be surprised how many Caucasians you represent because of kids wanting to pretend that they're in the mob when they're not.” Another Defender notes how “in Staten Island, I represented a surprising number of white people. I mean, at times it was 50-50 white and Black.” One Defender in Queens notes how, while the majority of clients were Black or Hispanic, “we have a high Guyanese, Indian, and Trinidadian population. I would say Asians would come after that (in terms of percentage of my clients). The lowest percentage would be white.” Another Defender notes that in Queens, “we'll have some Asian clients, with Chinese people being a larger group within Asia-America, and then maybe some Bengali clients.” One Defender in Manhattan gives the following answer: “It's probably about 70 to 75% Black, maybe about 20% Latino, and then the remainder you have between sort of Middle Eastern descent and Asian descent. That's a smaller demographic, but with certain types of offenses, it's more common. For the offense of being an unlicensed general vendor, usually those clients are from Africa, or are Asian. With driving-related offenses, a lot of times you're dealing with folks who are of Muslim faith and from Muslim countries.”

Most of the clients across the five boroughs, however, are either Black or Black and Brown.

Why do the people who become your clients become involved in the judicial system?

Defenders give a variety of reasons as to why their clients become involved in the judicial system. Many Defenders attribute client involvement in the system in part to unfair policing. One Defender answers the question this way: “Stop and frisk, racial profiling, being Black.” Another Defender agrees: “There are a host of reasons. If I had to make a list, I would say a majority of it has to do with where they live. In Queens, we get a lot of cases that come from Far Rockaway. Far Rockaway is a highly policed area, a low-income area. Then after that probably would be Jamaica; same thing. Jamaica is over-policed. So a lot of it has to do with over-policing.” Another Defender shares similar sentiments, noting that “if you are only looking at one place for problems, you're going to find problems in that one place. So it's going to look like only that one area is problematic, when the reality is that if you start looking elsewhere, you'll see the same exact thing….” Adds another Defender:

That's a dissertation. (Author laughs) We become involved in the criminal justice system because we treat Black and Brown people differently than white people. We police their neighborhoods, we stop them for no reason, and we arrest them for crimes that they may or may not have committed….
I live in a white neighborhood in Manhattan. I live in the financial district. No police in my neighborhood. They don't police my neighborhood. Every now and then I'll see a police officer walking around; but there are not cops walking up and down my street, or riding up and down my street, or slowing down as I walk down the street with bags in my hands, or stopping my son when he comes through walking down the street to pat him down.
Black people are involved in the criminal justice system for lots of reasons that are economic…. Black people are in the criminal justice system because they have encounters with police officers, and once that Black person has an encounter with a police officer, they're probably going to get arrested. I'm not saying Black people don't commit crimes, because I've had some people commit some very serious crimes. But there's a lot of crap that goes through the criminal justice system, especially with drugs. Half the time, you wouldn't even know someone has drugs on them if you hadn't stopped and searched them.
So I think we are involved in the criminal justice system because we have police contact; and we have police contact because the police are occupying our neighborhoods. Because Black communities are policed, Brown communities are policed, and white communities are not policed.

Many other Defenders have a more holistic view, attributing blame to racist conditions in housing, education, and society in general that have gone unaddressed. One Defender states: “Poverty, racism, and lack of education combined with aggressive racist policing.” Another Defender observes: “My experience demonstrated that it was mainly out of poverty. That was the overarching reason. I think poverty, a combination of that and over-policing of the neighborhoods that they come from was the main reason that they became involved. I mean, there are specific instances where people were involved in specific types of criminal activity, things having to do with domestic situations, fights in the street, allegations of sexual crimes. Those are specific, but they are smaller in number to what we as public defenders dealt with, which is mostly crimes of poverty.” Another Defender gives this response:

I mean, that's such a complex question that has a complex answer. But I think it is systemic. It's easy to try to simplify the answer to say that clients just don't care, are not interested, lazy, etc.; but the reality is you have to be forced to go a little bit deeper. There's generational trauma; there is generational unlearning that needs to be done. So the easy thing to say is that “these people” are lazy or are hopeless in trying to change their circumstances. The real answer is there are multi-layered, multi-generational, complex reasons for why people are in our predicament.

One Defender shares this example:

I mean, circumstances; sometimes it’s life circumstances, sometimes as far back as from one’s childhood to now. It's funny, but I was reading a pre-pleading memorandum² before I got on with you, detailing my client’s mental health history he's had since being a teenager. He might be in his forties now. His illness wasn’t addressed.
He became a client, not just because that day he allegedly burglarized the building, but it really started in his teens and probably before that. Unfortunately, I think, that is a situation in a lot of our cases. It's not just that alleged incident that happened which leads to a client arrest—obviously the arrest and all of that matters and ultimately gets them before you at arraignments—but there are so many other systems at play. In terms of just dealing with this client, even when he was in high school, he was never diagnosed. He wasn't diagnosed until his thirties. There are so many systems that let him down. He was homeless for about 25 years and dealing with that, so the only thing there was to do was to steal to just survive. He had no family or anything. So, it wasn't just the burglary that happened, but it's all of those circumstances and events that led up to him having to survive.
And that's the case in many of my cases. Obviously, some are different; but I would say in a majority of the cases that it's not just that one incident or allegation that brings the client before the judicial system. It's so much more [than that]; … so many systems play a part in why [our clients become our clients.] When I was in arraignments on Saturday, I was assigned to represent, let’s say, John Doe. It wasn't just the fact that maybe he had a gun in a car that morning before I arraigned him. It's just so many other things. Would he have been stopped if he was driving in a certain other neighborhood? Would he have been stopped if his skin color was different? There are so many systems that play a part in why our clients are brought before the judicial system.

Some Defenders go deeper and link client involvement in the judicial system with broader conceptions of racial control. One Defender answers this way: “Racism. Racist policing practices, racist housing policy, capitalism, misogynoir. All of those things come together to create a system that tries to trap as many Black people as possible within it, and that's from the beginning of slave patrols. How do we control and manipulate Black folks in this country if we can't do it through slavery? And so those that make the law decide what's illegal and what's not illegal; they decide who's going to be charged and how harshly they're going to be dealt with. All of that is informed by racism and sexism.” Another Defender concurs: “Importantly, we live in a racist and classist society, and so there has to be a certain amount of people who are incarcerated, who are held accountable in the criminal justice system, so that they can control the population and extract resources, so they can control the behavior of the most vulnerable in our society. Of course, the most vulnerable in our society are the poor and people of color, and specifically poor people of color.” Another Defender notes:

I say that the vast majority of my clients were doing the same things that wealthy, white people were doing, and the wealthy white people were not in the courts. So people who are using cocaine, folks who were fighting with family members or their significant others, or people drinking, all that stuff everyone does in the city. The only people who get criminalized are poor folks.

A number of Defenders identify poor decision-making as a cause of involvement in the judicial system. One Defender states: “There are a lot of reasons, poverty being a large one. Intelligence or lack thereof; wrong place, wrong time; sometimes some weren't raised better. Oh, there are a lot of reasons. Maybe they made a wrong turn on their way to church, or they made a bad decision that snowballed and they tried to figure their way out of it.” Another Defender notes: “I think for a lot of my younger clients, like a lot of the younger men, I just think that sometimes they just make split-second decisions and don't necessarily think about the consequences after the fact. I think that with a lot of them, sometimes it also is a cry for attention or help.” Another Defender remarks: “Some were arrested for dumb things. Some people were arrested for situations that they did not know how to handle. Some people are young and really don't think.” One Defender offers this answer:

(Laughter) I’d say they make bad decisions. Why? I mean, if I doing percentages on that, I would say like 30% are because of drug or alcohol problems; I'd say a good 10, 15% because of mental health issues. And then other people are just making bad decisions. They're trying to do something without putting the work in. In other words, “I'm gonna steal this instead of working hard and getting a degree or getting a job that's gonna pay me enough money. I'm gonna go ahead and try to steal this.” …
It's mainly just bad decision making. There's a lot to be said for their home life and their upbringing; a lot of people come out of some pretty rough situations. But I don't ever attribute criminality to that because too many people come through those exact same situations and don't go in that direction. The vast majority of people who come through those situations don't get in trouble with the law. So it's a misnomer to put it to that, saying, “Oh, he comes from a broken home” or “There's just incredible poverty” or this, that, and the other. Yeah, that stuff exists; and you know what? The vast majority of people who come through that make it okay without getting into trouble with the law. So I think it's a crutch that too many people try to lean on, and they shouldn't.
Being poor doesn't mean that you have to make bad decisions. And I'm not one of these “lift yourself up by the bootstraps” kind of guys. I mean, I came from poverty. My father eventually got a good job; but before that we were extremely poor. But I don't think it's fair to put the things that I did and went through in life on my clients, saying, “Oh, well I was poor; so you should be able to make it because you poor.”
What it has to do with is decision making. You can decide to do the right thing or you can decide not to. Most of the people in your socioeconomic position choose to do the right thing. So I'm not going to give you a pass for choosing to do the wrong thing. That's all I'm saying.

Some Defenders note how, with some clients, the issue is generational. One Defender posits that “maybe there just wasn't—and I know it sounds cliche, but—maybe there just wasn't somebody there to show them something different.” Another Defender notes: “Then I just think some people think [being involved in the system] is what they do when they grow up.” Another Defender states: “Some of it is generational, especially as I pick up teenagers [as clients] who are like, ‘My dad's doing a 15-year bid,’ or ‘My father just got out on parole,’ and stuff like that. So some of it is generational, where they may be emulating other people that they see either in the community or in their household.”

A couple more answers:

Defender Because they are alleged to have done something that was against the law, whether it is actually the fact or if they were being profiled and the police are just looking to arrest people just because. They're my clients because they're presumed or alleged to have done something that was against the law.

Defender Well, that's a loaded question. Um, a number of different reasons, right? It varies based upon their financial makeup, how they qualify to even become a client of [a public defender]; and the unfortunate situation that landed them in the criminal justice system, whether it's a domestic violence case, a gun case, or a drug case. It's a myriad of reasons why somebody would land in arraignments having to be represented by a public defender.

FN 2: Same thing as a PPI. See footnote 4 from the previous chapter for an explanation of a PPI.

Do you feel like your clients are bad people? If not, what do you say to people that say that your clients are bad people?

Across the board, Defenders answer the first question in the negative. A few Defenders explain that any “bad” clients they had were a small minority. One Defender answers: “No, not all of them. I think there are people that do bad things. I’m sure I’ve had some bad people, but I think sometimes there are bad people that do good things and good people that do bad things. I think the majority of my clients are good people that do bad things instead of bad people that do good things. But there are bad people; I’ve had a few of those.” Another Defender states: “I think that's a misunderstanding of who people are and why people commit certain offenses. Sometimes there's what they call crimes of opportunity. Sometimes there are crimes of necessity. And sometimes there are just crimes that occur because of a person's mental state or mental illness. Rarely do you come across somebody who's just evil, without any type of mental illness that is causing them to act in a certain way. That's been very rare for me to find throughout the years.” Another Defender concurs: “There are very few clients in my lifetime where I have felt like, HOLY SHIT! What the fuck is this?”

Many Defenders speak to the presumption of innocence, the idea in American criminal law that a person charged with a crime is innocent until the prosecution has proven them guilty. One Defender states: “Everybody deserves legal representation, and in this society and this country, we're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.” Another Defender states: “So people who ask me, ‘How do you represent guilty people? How do you represent these terrible, horrible individuals?’ My response is, everybody take a beat, take a pause. The reality is, at the moment I meet a client, my clients are factually innocent. That's number one. I wasn't there, you weren't there.” In response to the second question, one Defender states: “They don't know anything. What are they basing that on? Because they're arrested? Just because you're arrested doesn't make you a bad person.”

Defenders also recognize that their “guilty” clients—those who actually violated the law and did whatever they were accused of—are generally good people who just did something illegal. In answering the second question, one Defender states: “I try to tell people who give me the how do you represent those people? speech, ‘Wouldn't you like to be treated with kindness and compassion on your worst day?’ Because that's usually what we see as public defenders; we see people on their worst day, or in their worst series of days, or at their rock bottom or getting to what looks like rock bottom….” Another Defender professes the belief that “no person should be defined by the worst thing that they've ever done. I believe that everybody has the capacity for growth and change.” Adds another Defender: “Even if you committed the crime that you're accused of committing, that also does not make you a bad person.”

One Defender shares this experience:

So my spouse and I spoke at my child's career day two years before COVID. That question comes up a lot, especially when you're talking to kids. When you explain to kids what you do, “We defend people who are accused of crimes,”—we teach our kids [that the world is not black and white], but most people present to their kids a very black and white world. Good, bad; criminal, not criminal; cops get bad guys. That's our language; it's the American vernacular—what we said to them was, “Should you be judged for the rest of your life on your worst day? Do you think it's fair that on your worst day, that's how we judge you for the rest of your life?” And the kids say, “No.”
I’m like, “We've all made mistakes, haven't we? I bet you hit your brother or sister when you got angry, and you shouldn't have done that. Or you took something: your mom told you that you can't have that donut, and you took it anyway. Somebody told you not to go into somewhere, and you went there. Like, everybody's done that. Should that define you for the rest of your life, the mistake that you made? So what we do is we try not to judge people on the worst day of their life; and if we can do that, then we can understand how we help people, not bad people. We're helping people who had a really bad day.”
So that's how we explained it to the kids; and I do sort of the same thing when I talk with adults as well. There's a reason that something happens; most people don't want to commit crime. So there's something that either happened in that moment or there's something that's been brewing for a long time that nobody addressed; either way, we just have to try to make sure that never happens again.
So that's how we represent bad people. (Author laughs)

Defenders see the humanity in their clients where other players generally do not. One Defender explains:

Early in my career, I remember I had this big, imposing Black male client; and, you know, all you get is the rap sheet. He was on parole for rape and had some misdemeanor assault charge. And he had been held in jail for so long before they brought him to court on this misdemeanor. He was so upset and just angry…. I was just thinking, this is a huge man. He's going to just, like, bang me on the top of my head with these handcuffs.
And he was the nicest man. He was angry because he had been wronged by the system, held in jail ridiculously long without even being charged with a crime, just because he was on parole. Ultimately, I got him out, and I got his case dismissed. I would see him on the street of [my neighborhood] and he would give me hugs and everything like that. And I'm not a hugger in my life in general; but … I was just like, “Oh, okay, thank you.”
So you can't let someone's situation determine your outlook of them as a person. People get caught up in shit for all different kinds of reasons. Like, I could have gotten DWIs in my life or been involved in domestic violence or something like that. So I can't judge them by the case; I judge them by who they are and my interactions with them. Sometimes there are some assholes; and I'm like, OK, now I see why you got this case: because you're a fucking asshole….
I have clients with 30-page rap sheets and multiple convictions, and they are the sweetest, sweetest people who just got addicted to drugs; intelligent men, where if they had parents that gave a shit about them, maybe they could have been doctors, lawyers, the next Barack Obama, you know? But circumstances led to them being involved in the criminal justice system….
One thing that I always take note of is how a client can look when you see them. On the first day they're arrested, they're coming in off the streets. They've been living hard lives. And some of them, when they go through jail and have been there a couple months and get cleaned up, they start eating regularly, working out. They transform into their best selves. And then we say, “Okay, how can we get you out? How are we going to make sure you don't come back?” If I looked at them how they looked on their worst day and didn't try to help them, I miss out on getting to know them and giving them opportunities.

Some Defenders point out how clients are singled out and punished for conduct where other wrongdoers go unpunished. One Defender states: “I'm just trying to give a voice to the voiceless because there is wrongdoing on numerous parties’ behalf; and a lot of the time, it's not just my clients. A lot of the time, it’s the cops in why or even how they stopped my clients, so who polices them?” Another Defender notes how “people do bad things everywhere; it's only some people who get punished for it while other people get rewarded. [Some folks] can break the law, and it's literally like a line item in the budget: ‘Oh, just go pay some fine, whatever. Our investment decisions that we're making might intentionally destroy the retirement funds for millions of people, might destroy the health of people, and it’s fine.’ They don't need to face the consequences for it, or the consequences that they might face is an insignificant fine…. But if you're not wealthy or white, the same kind of actions can have very different consequences.” Adds another Defender: “There's some book or theory that we all commit like seven felonies a day or something like that.³ So nobody can sit here and say that they walk around blameless. Also, things that are crimes are only crimes because we say it is. When my parents were coming up, smoking weed was a crime. But now we have this push to legalize marijuana. We have dispensaries, we have weed tourism, so on and so forth…. So the things that are crimes are only crimes because we say they're crimes.”

A number of Defenders also speak to the history of racism and its role in contributing to Black and Brown overrepresentation in the judicial system. One Defender remarks: “Even when clients are guilty of something, they're guilty of something that's ridiculous, or they're guilty of something that can be directly traced back and linked to their history of a trauma survivor, their history of a survivor of American racism. So with the idea that our clients are looked at as horrible people, for me it's just a matter of reminding people of the evils of American racism and the evils of the American criminal legal system…. Particularly for Black people, I just haven't seen an instance where the allegations in their case cannot be somehow linked to a history of American racism.” Another Defender concurs:

In broad terms, they are a victim of their socioeconomic status, which is clearly derived from the color of their skin. These are people who a lot of times are dealing with substance abuse, mental illness, and financial and economic oppression that manifests itself into them doing things that are illegal, like selling drugs or running some sort of scam with the cards. It's the lack of economic opportunity coupled with preventing people of color from voting that are likely the driving forces of why there is so much crime.
And then the thing that makes your head hurt is that your clients become your clients for these reasons, but then they don't know how to regulate their emotions. They get incredibly angry, and then a little discussion or something that should just be like, “my bad man” and keep walking turns into an attempted murder or an attempted assault [in the first degree]. Then it’s like, what do you do now that the person has been charged with this violent crime? They get sent to prison and you turn a person who has almost no criminal experience into a professional criminal by sending them to “Criminal University,” which is prison. Then they become a violent predicate felon, and they get their masters or their doctoral degree in committing violent crimes.
You're dealing with a racket. The government has created the problem, and now that problem has caused a bigger problem…. I'm not going to say a bigger problem in terms of there being a bigger crime; obviously rape and murder and torture of an entire people in the genocidal nature that we've been subjected to is horrific. But you have these racist policies, Jim Crow, segregation, etc., and then now you're having the mass incarceration of Black and Brown people. They're taught to be professional criminals, and then they get back out on the streets and then everyone's like, “See? See? We need law and order; we can't have this.” Well, you're the one who created the problem. This just like the mob saying, “You gotta pay me a hundred bucks a day, or I'm gonna wreck your business….”
You can't ignore that people want to be safe. Black people, white, everyone wants to be safe. No one wants to have violent crime. No one wants to have people coming through their window and committing violent crimes against them. But America has absolutely created this problem.

Defenders also suggest that persons who think clients are bad people should place themselves in their clients’ situations. One Defender states: “Walk a day in their shoes and tell me what happens. That's all I have to say about that. Walk a day in their shoes. Even for me, man, I know it's really easy for me to get locked up. I feel like I'm one bad decision from being in jail. So really, I would just say, walk a day in somebody else's shoes, be a Black man or Hispanic man trying to live life. It is not that easy. It's very easy to get caught up.” Another Defender agrees: “I don't know if I really had these conversations all that often; but when I do, I ask them what kind of decisions they would make if they were in our client's circumstances, if they grew up in the background that our clients grew up in, if they had the lack of opportunities that our clients lack. Would they really be able to sit there and judge other people in the way that they are judging our clients?”

What role do the following play in your clients becoming involved in the judicial system: A) poverty? B) the education system? C) housing? D) policing? E) racism? F) mental health? G) poor decision-making?

Poverty Almost every Defender that answers this question gives the same answer or variation of the answer: “Huge role.” One Defender gives a literal answer: “A huge role, because if they can't afford an attorney, they get assigned to me.” Another Defender expounds this way:

Poverty is a huge issue. I was lucky enough to go to a private school most of my life; but then in high school, I went to a public school in Pennsylvania. The one thing I'm finally getting across to the white people I went to school with, that came from privilege, is that they know as many people that should have gotten arrested for the same thing as people in poor communities; but in their communities that they grew up in, the police knew not to harass people for those issues. For example, everybody drinks and drives, so don't arrest [this particular person] for that. Or that person, his father is somebody, so we're not going call the police. [They do this because] they think that person has a future. With poverty and so many prosecutors coming from privilege, they don't see our clients as people all the time. They see them as lazy or deserving of their circumstances.

The Education System The majority of Defenders think the education system also plays a huge role, although answers here are more varied. A number of Defenders think the education system plays “some role.” Amongst the majority, one Defender states: “That also plays a very large role in what happens for people who might have gotten involved in the criminal judicial system, yes.” Another Defender concurs: “It's looped in with poverty, right? Property values fund schools, and it's all looped in and it's huge as well. They work in tandem. And if you tell me something else, I'll tell you that they're a trifecta. Probably.” Adds another Defender: “It plays a major role. It is one of the factors. If you're a Black kid in the New York City public school system, that's a major role for you. That's one way to get into the system.”

Housing While the majority of Defenders think housing plays a huge role, the answers here are more varied than thoughts about the education system. Some Defenders say, “Some role.” One Defender answers, “No role.” One Defender answers this way: “It depends on [the type of housing my client has.] If my client lives in public housing or lives in a poor neighborhood, it could play a big role. If they don't, it may not play that big of a role.” Another Defender answers similarly: “Hmm…. I don't know if housing does [play a role]. I guess in some respects. I think for some of our clients, if they lived in different neighborhoods, they would have more opportunities. So that would be [the effect of] housing.”

Amongst the Defenders who think housing plays a major role, one Defender remarks: “It’s wrapped up in the social, economic, and poverty aspects; like where you live is where they send NYPD. So if you decide to smoke marijuana at age 15 with your friends, you might be labeled a gang member; but doing that on the Upper West Side, people won’t think anything of it and will just be happy you’re not doing cocaine.” The Defender who spoke about the “trifecta” in education states that housing “completes the trifecta.” Adds another Defender: “I think this pandemic has shed light on how many people have unstable housing or no permanent housing, or on the conditions of the housing, because they’re now stuck in the house all the time and not getting meals. And we’re realizing that people live in houses without gas, without cooking gas, without hot water. Like, that shit matters. And it's being exposed now because of the pandemic. Or living in public housing, where maybe there's a lot of gang activity or something like that, so you feel scared walking through your projects, so you're going to get a gun just for protection and then the cops see you and arrest you…. So housing plays a huge role.”

Policing There are some variety of responses to this question, but less so than housing and even education. The majority of Defenders think policing plays a huge role; one Defender calls its role “astronomical.” Another Defender states: “That is the role to get into the system. Police officers are the reasons why most of our clients are in the system. That's the ultimate way to get into the system: over-policing.” Another Defender concurs, characterizing policing as “the main role.” Adds another Defender: “Major. Also, given the nature of housing in New York City, people hang out in the streets more, in parks more. So there's police in those areas to observe, to harass, and all that. I think if we weren't subjected to a police state living in New York City, less people would get arrested. Arrest numbers are not as high in the suburbs.” One Defender gives this take:

The product of the system. Absolutely, the policing—over-policing—of Black and Brown neighborhoods. And then it's justified because of, again, violent crime…. The conservative argument is, “This is what the NYPD is doing.” They’re like, “So you think that we're too tough? We're over-policing? Fine, we're gonna not police anymore.” And then there are spikes in violent crime that happen, and now they're literally not doing their job and trying to slow down. It's unfortunate because you're put in a situation where they're trying to force you to choose between being safe and not having racist policing. It's a false choice.

A couple Defenders aren’t so sure. One Defender notes that it played “some role.” Another Defender gives this answer:

That's an interesting one. It's interesting because not many of the people that come across our desk did nothing. On the misdemeanor level, it’s policing; on a felony level, it's not policing. Like don't get me wrong; cops get things wrong sometimes. But they get it more wrong with the less important crimes, especially during my time as a public defender, because they were all chasing that broken windows nonsense. So there were tons and tons of people getting arrested and charged with misdemeanors. That was just absolutely crazy.

Racism With one exception, every Defender that answers this question thinks that racism plays either a substantial role, a huge role, or something greater. One Defender states: “Well that’s at the root of many things, right? So I would say a very big role.” Another Defender concurs: “It's huge. It's what causes the poverty. That's what causes the housing issues. That's what causes what's going on in the school system. It's like the parent of all of these other things. You can draw straight lines between racism and all of those other things.” Another Defender agrees: “Huge. Huge. I mean, it's white cops policing Black and Brown [people] that they’re afraid of just by a glance. It’s terrible.” One Defender similarly answers: “Number one. Racism feeds into all of that. Because of racism and redlining, you have people being pushed into subpar quality housing, subpar quality education. With that coupled together, you’re going to have an increase in poverty, which is going to increase certain things. So to me, that is one of the major contributing factors in circumstances; it’s the nucleus from which all these other issues stem from.” Adds another Defender: “Oh my…. That is the central reason behind all of that. I think racism is the reason, and then you have all the symptoms of it. But that's the reason why our clients get put in the system 99% of the time.”

One Defender gives this answer:

Racism and policing kind of go hand in hand. To me it explains why they focus their efforts in particular communities. There's a racist element to the entire framework, for policing in certain areas and leaving certain areas out of the mix. For instance, I'm thinking in Greenwich Village—and I know that all types of people go into Greenwich Village—but it's basically a white community. There's tremendous drug usage over there. I'm not knocking them; I don't give a shit about whether they want to smoke. It should be legal. But there is tremendous usage over there. You can walk down Bleecker Street, and there's somebody smoking a joint in the eighties and nineties, no problem. If you walked in a different community altogether, like in the South Bronx or in Brooklyn, it was like you were basically subjecting yourself to a stop.

One Defender offers this anecdote:

I remember I had a white friend who came down here from upstate. He just pulls out a joint and starts smoking in my area; and I say, “Are you out of your mind? This isn't like where you're from.” This is totally different, and he's not even thinking about. And of course, he would never even have to contemplate that a cop would stop him; or if they did stop him, they'll just say, “Throw that out.” So I think racism plays a massive role in what goes on and how people get involved in the system.

The lone dissenter—in part, at least—offers this take: “That's another funny one too, because if it's racism then you and I should have been arrested and have records. Again, with felonies, it's not so much racism as much as it is just what the arrestees are doing. With misdemeanors, the reason why it's racism is because with the lesser offenses, if those same people were white, they wouldn't have been arrested….”

Mental Illness There is little variation in the answers to this factor. Most Defenders think mental health plays a substantial or huge role. One Defender answers: “Huge role. Huge, huge role. These are clients who find themselves in difficult situations. Their families have given up on them, the system doesn’t know how to deal with them, so it decides to put them in jail. These are people that have the most difficulty in making decisions. So when a person with mental health issues is put under stress in life, and then it's stress in the situation that [makes them] most vulnerable to making a bad decision, we penalize them the most.” Another Defender adds this: “That is one of the things that have gotten worse and worse overtime. There has always been a lot of mentally ill people involved in the system, but now the systems in place for allowing people to get help seem to be fewer. They weren't great 20 years ago, but it seems to be a lot worse now. I have found that, and I don't know the exact number, but it seems like 25% or a third of the people that I deal with have mental health issues that are so persistent that they really shouldn't be prosecuted for the offenses that they’re charged with.” Another Defender observes: “Ugh, so many mental ill clients in the criminal justice system, both undiagnosed and diagnosed, at varying degrees of intensity. Definitely plays a huge role.”

Some Defenders combine mental illness with some of the aforementioned factors. One Defender notes: “It's a product of all of those other things that we've talked about repeatedly. Witnessing repeated trauma from an early age up into adolescence and adulthood, and that's when you're starting to [become] an adolescent and head into adulthood, you see the manifestation of these mental health illnesses and things that have happened from kids when they were younger. They're dealing with so many issues, and now they're adults, and no one can handle them. We don't have a way to effectively deal with that. Again, straight line from racism.” Another Defender answers: “Huge. It's the combination of mental illness and poverty, because when it's just mental illness alone and you got a middle-class kid, they're going to have the same path more or less as a white person with the same mental illness in the same economic category. What is different though is that some of the free resources that are available for those with mental illness can’t be plugged into by those who are poor and uneducated….”

Poor Decision-Making Defenders’ answers are most varied here. One Defender thinks it played “a large role.” Another Defender adds: “As a result of all of those other things, it plays a huge role.” On the flip side are Defenders who think it plays little to no role. One Defender answers: “Less than you think. So I would say rarely.” Another Defender answers: “I don’t think I can say that, because it’s a confluence of all the factors that you just said that someone could have. Why should they have to make these extra-hurdle decisions that, like, an average white person wouldn't have to make? Why is it a poor decision for my client to fight with his friend and steal his friend's iPhone when a white kid in New Jersey or even on the Upper East Side can do the exact same thing? So I don't necessarily think [poor decision making is a factor]. Why is it a poor decision when my client steals from H&M when white girls steal from fucking Bloomingdales all day? Why is it poor decision making for us, but not for them? So I just don't agree with that. White kids can sell weed; that's not poor decision making.” By contrast, one Defender offers this take:

Poor decision making… I mean, you could say on some level that that's the main thing. Let's take mental illness out of the equation. Most individuals have an understanding of what's right and what's not right. If you have an understanding of what's right and what's not right, then you also understand that if you do something that you know is wrong, there are potential consequences. If you decide to do it anyway, well, that falls into the category of poor decision making, right? And then you can't necessarily fall back on those other things as an excuse. It could be a contributing factor: “Hey, I was starving. So, I stole a sandwich.” Okay, I understand that. I understand that. But did this person exhaust every possibility available to them to feed themselves before they decided to steal the sandwich?
I want to be really clear: I am not suggesting that that's something that's easy to do. I don't think it's easy to do. However, if you don't want to become entrenched in a system that you consider to be systemically flawed and/or racist, then you can't put yourself in a position to become entrenched in it. It’s like, you can't complain about what our politicians are doing if you don't vote, if you don't exercise your right to vote. Your choices may not be great, but the worst choice you can make is to say, “I'm just not going to vote.” That's the worst choice you can make. So if you make a decision to do something that is against the law, and you know it's against the law, that's just poor decision making. And again, that's not to suggest that to lead a law-abiding life is always easy. I'm sure all of us can think about things that we did when we were younger, and now we’re like, thank goodness nobody was watching back then, because that could have been a problem.
But you have to think about your decisions. One of the things I try to tell my children is: “It's easy to not do homework. It's easy to not take school seriously. It's easy to skip school. It becomes easy to go with your crew and go steal something. It’s easy to say, ‘Nobody’s looking; go take that candy. It’s a little thing. They’re not going to feel it. You think CVS is going to miss it?’ It’s easy to justify [bad behavior].” You know what is not easy? Reading seven chapters as part of an assignment you got on Friday that's due on Monday. Law school wasn't easy. People who don't go to law school don't know that they give you more work than you can actually do. You have to parcel your time and figure out how to get through work that you don't have enough time to do by design. That's hard. That's not easy. Taking a bar exam, where you have four possible answers and three of them are correct, but you have to pick the most correct one, is difficult. Those things are difficult….
I think as a people, we have to start looking at the decisions that we're making because we're not getting outside help. You can't make a poor decision and say, “Well, I'm supposed to get probation.” No, you're not supposed to get anything. You're supposed to be punished. There is a punitive measure if you commit a crime. You're not entitled to probation just because the white person got it. You're expecting that kind of handout, but you shouldn't have put yourself in that position in the first place to have to say, “But I'm supposed to get this.”
So listen, I'm not going the way of Clarence Thomas. (Author laughs) Obviously, I'm not going that way. But we have to take care of ourselves. There's nobody else going to take care of us. That's really what I'm saying.

Aside from public defenders, are there any other court players that are genuinely supportive of your clients?

Defenders generally give two sets of answers to this question. Some Defenders talk about court-ordered programs that work with and provide services for clients. One Defender states: “I would say program advocates, counselors who work in court-approved programs designed to help clients. Sometimes they can be a little paternalistic like the prosecutors, but a lot of times they just want the best for the client.” Another Defender concurs: “Yes, I think that there are some folks that represent programs that we refer clients to that are dedicated to our clients. I mean, I've had people in programs work with me to present a certain side of our client to the court, and those people are incredible.” Another Defender shares: “I always found the alternative-to-incarceration programs to be big advocates and committed. Same with CASES and Fortune Society…. I found those organizations very committed and very helpful.” In the Bronx particularly, one Defender states: “Court advocates and programs like the Fortune Society and Bronx Community Solutions assess our clients, and then they recommend certain services that would be good for them.” Another Defender opines: “I think other community-based organizations that are not court-ordered programs are very supportive of our clients.”

Some Defenders are wary about some of the court-approved programs. One Defender notes: “I'm not sure the motivation behind it, if it's altruistic motivation or otherwise; but I think now you have more programming than before. Some of the programming is excellent and have truly helped a lot of our clients reestablish themselves. And then I think some programming is there just to try to continuously gain funding. So I think you're going to get a mixed bag when it comes to programming.” Another Defender remarks: “There is the Fortune Society and CASES; there are a lot of organizations that to me are supportive of my clients. Now the diversion programs, I'm not so keen on. They're about making money. They're about getting as many warm bodies as they can and holding them, keeping them in [diversion] as long as they can so that they can keep getting paid. I really don't have a lot of respect for those organizations. I really don't; and that's because over the years I've seen how they’ve operated.” Adds another Defender: “Sometimes I want to say that some of those state supported programs [are helpful], for addiction and things like that. I want to say that, but I've seen them throw our clients under the bus one too many times for me to say that they actually care about our clients and instead really care more about the grant money they’re going to be getting from the state….”

Some Defenders talk about particular employees in programs. One Defender states: “I've gone to trial where they sat in the front seat to give me pointers; and because I'm not one of those lawyers that believes that I know everything and all that, I believe I can learn from anybody. There was this one social worker from a program who had worked with my client, and she sat throughout my whole trial in the front seat because her specialization was dealing with young people. I was representing a very young kid charged with rape. She would tell me, ‘That's not a typical reaction. Try this, and this, and this, and this.’ And she was such a help. We got an acquittal, and I'm telling you she was a gem.” Another Defender answers the question this way: “In the courtroom? No, not really. Not as a whole group. Some individuals, yeah, but not as a group. No, I don't think there is [anyone else supportive of our clients]. There are maybe some people who run drug treatment programs. Like we had a woman—she's retired now—she ran the TASC program⁴in [the borough I practiced in], and she was really pro-client. You could mess up a gazillion times; and the judges would ask, ‘Can you still work with her, Ms. So-and-so?’ And she would say, ‘Oh yes, judge. We can.’ She did everything she could to make sure a client succeeded….” One Defender offers this response:

I found that some of the counselors that were a part of the court system [were generally supportive] …. There was this gentleman, I don't remember his name. He was an African American guy, and he did referrals for cases and some of the other programs in the court. I wish I’d remembered his name because he was such a decent guy to my clients, always very respectful, always treated them with dignity, and was always interested in helping them even in situations where he had to really move some things around. I really, truly appreciated that, and I always got the sense from the conversations that we would have that he understood that most of these people were in the system because of poverty, because of overarching economic racism, white supremacy, and all of those macro issues that result in over-policing of our neighborhoods, the arrests, and the disenfranchisement that leads or forces people to be involved in criminal activity.
So he was one, and there were some other case workers that showed genuine interest. Most of them were Black. All of them weren’t Black; some of them were young Caucasian women. But most of them were Black and seemed to have an understanding of the situation, which you could not help but have an understanding of it if you work in the courts every day. They worked in the courtrooms every day. They saw the population demographics that came through and bore witness to how cases played out, how clients were perceived and treated. When you sit in the courtroom and watch day after day [as] cases pass through you, it's very clear to you what the issues are and who was most impacted by the judicial system.
So it's a long answer, but it's really important for me to give a long answer because that's something that I was really inspired by and that I really appreciated, because those weren't individuals that worked at the organization that I worked for. But one or two of those people were very invested and very dedicated to placing people in programs as an alternative to jail.

This speaks to the other main set of answers: Defenders generally find particular persons in certain agencies to be supportive. One Defender notes that “that could be anyone. That could be prosecutors, that could be judges, that could be court officers…. I’ve had prosecutors that express genuine concern for a particular client or a group of clients, or judges that express genuine concerns, or just small kindnesses extended from a court officer or a clerk….” Another Defender notes: “I think some court officers when they start to know the clients, like the ones who constantly come back and forth for a case, [can be helpful]. If they're always there at 9:30, the court officers start to know them and start to talk to them and have some sort of empathy for them. People who are on trial where the officers have to escort them back and forth from the holding areas into the courtroom, they tend to develop a rapport with that person.” Another Defender adds: “I wouldn’t say that judges are supportive of our clients or court staff, [and] of course not prosecutors; but I will say that there are individual judges—very few of them—who do actually care about criminal defendants and want to do the right thing. But few.” One Defender has this to say about a probation attorney: “There was a woman in [the borough I practiced]; she was a probation lawyer. She was really great. She did everything she could to not violate people. If you got violated, [she made sure] that you didn't go to jail. If you did go to jail, it was so minimal. She was just really great.”

A few Defenders give shout-outs to social workers and other non-attorney staff in their respective offices. One Defender states: “I don’t know … I mean, the social workers in our office. I think our staff are supportive.” Another Defender gives this answer: “Social workers. At our office, we have social workers. We have legal advocates that are not per se attorneys, but that assist with our clients….” Another Defender notes: “Our social workers are very supportive.” Another Defender thinks: “I think the mental health program directors and social workers in our office … are genuinely helpful with the clients.”

A few more responses:

Defender There are some people that are supportive of clients, like some of these alternative-to-incarceration programs. Sometimes the Alternative Sentencing Bureau within the DA’s office will be sympathetic and will give clients several chances, although some of that depends on their race.

Defender You can find people in the various roles that are supportive, but that doesn't mean that the general orientation isn't against you. The general orientation is against your client. In almost every role, there are some solid advocates that are trying to do what they can, but they're drowning in the institution and amongst other players who aren't committed to that.

Defender I mean, not exactly. I would say every now and again, there'd be a particular kind of program; and some of the program officers would really bend over backwards and go further to try to help your client out and not be violated in their program. I've seen that in some instances, sometimes the interpreter [would be helpful]. It depends on the interpreter…. There were some who were pretty sympathetic and, if your client was saying something that was potentially harmful, would kind of like whisper it to you before saying it on the record, whereas others are just blurting it out…. I would say that's it; I can't really think of any other court players that have ever really been helpful or supportive.

Defender I think that there are support services, like Bronx Community Solutions. I think there are folks who work there who really do want to help our clients. I think that there are other support services and programs and things like that, where there are people who choose those jobs because they want to help our client population. They don't get paid a lot. They're not fancy jobs. They're not highly coveted positions. Yet, people choose to take those jobs. Of course, you have some people who are burnt out, and you have some bad apples or whatever. But I think that there is a network of people in this city who want to help our clients, not just public defenders.

FN 4: “TASC” refers to programming related to addressing drug and substance abuse.

Do you ever get frustrated with your clients? If so, what gets you frustrated? How do you deal with those frustrations?

Across the board, Defenders get frustrated with their clients at times for various reasons. One Defender states: “I think one thing that really gets me frustrated is when people lie to me. That really gets under my skin, especially when it just hurts them. But that's also just part of us building a better relationship. Sometimes the onus is on me to earn their trust.” Relatedly, one Defender gets frustrated with clients that were dishonest about things they said they would do: “Point blank period, that's my biggest pet peeve. They say they're going to meet with TASC, or they're going to have the community service [that they’ve been sentenced to complete] done by a certain time. Then I make that representation relying on what they've told me, so it kind of does get on my nerves. Or when we have a meeting planned, where they're supposed to meet me at my office or sign something; or they make promises saying they will send me something they have that I need. It kind of gets on my nerves when I am just left hanging.” Another Defender offers this answer:

Oh yeah, no doubt. It can be a combo of things. For example, I try to be super direct with my clients, and I want them to do the same with me. So I'll say to my client, “Listen, I want to know where your head is at with your case.” If we're talking about a disposition, I’m like, “What types of dispositions would you be open to? You say you want us to work out a deal on your case. Are you willing to talk to a social worker? Are you willing to do a program? Are you willing to do [such-and-such]?” And I'll tell my client straight up, “Listen, don't tell me yes because you think that's what I want you to say. If it's no, if you know you’re not going to do the work, you’re not going to do the program, you’re not going to have the conversation, or you're not going to have an honest conversation, then let's not waste time. I'd rather you just straight up tell me, ‘Miss, I’m not interested in that.’ Let's not even go down that path unless we really have to. I'm just not interested.” I ask my clients to keep it a buck with me, and it's frustrating when they don't. So that's an aspect that gets frustrating.

Many Defenders express being frustrated when their clients don’t listen to them. One Defender states how it “frustrates me when my clients don't listen to me. I’ve told them something and then they swear I didn't tell them when I absolutely told them.” Another Defender notes: “Some of the things that get me frustrated is when people are not listening because they're so gung ho. They’ll say, ‘Well, this is what happened and this is my side.’ And I'll say, ‘That's fine, but understand that things could be looked at two ways, right? You're saying that she completely made this story up, but one way that that can be interpreted, or how the assistant district attorney can flip that to hurt you, is that they can say, ‘Well, she's lying because she's afraid to you.’ And it’s not something that is completely unbelievable, right?’ But when they can't see past just their interest, then sometimes it gets very frustrating.”

Some Defenders get frustrated when their clients seemingly act against their own self-interests. One Defender notes: “Sometimes I’m frustrated at the point of the arraignment interview when they have shared something that they’ve done—not that they’re accused of, but that they’ve done since their arrest, that I’m like Ugh, why did you do that? Usually, it’s that they don’t stop talking, or they talk a lot to the cops, even though everywhere there’s examples of how that doesn’t help them. But I get that there’s this belief that they can actually reason with law enforcement.” Another Defender answers: “Also frustrating is when my clients make decisions that appear to be against their self-interest. I can usually for the most part follow the logic, but it just frustrates me when that happens. I'm thinking of one client in particular who really broke my heart, and it continues to be sort of a soft spot. She had a case against her where she could have taken 15 years. She had already done about three, and she would've probably had to do another 10-ish years and wrapped it up. The case against her was very bad, but she would not take the plea. She ended up getting sentenced to 35 to life. (Author reacts) Yeah. It's painful. It's still painful. We took that verdict over two years ago, and it still hurts….” Another Defender shares this story:

I went to trial on a case where the client was a pimp; and this was his sixth time. He was being offered two to six years in prison and he didn’t want to take it, even though they had a recording of him and it was clearly him talking to the victim about what he wanted her to do, etc., etc. She was 14, and basically he was trying to pimp her out. I kept telling him that [the evidence was stacked against him], and he wouldn't take it. The thing about him was that he would talk to me as if it was a conquest, as if I was one of the girls he was trying to seduce. And I would look at him like, please. But I fought like hell for him because I knew I couldn't stand him. I could not stand that man. Oh my God, oh I couldn't stand him.
And I fought like hell. But I kept telling him, “You’re going to be convicted. They've got a recording of your voice. They know what you were trying to do.” Then they had this victim come in; I did a good cross examination, but it couldn't overcome the obvious. So he got convicted. Remember, he turned down two to six years in prison. The judge gave him eight to sixteen years in prison. And he looks to me and said, “We're going to appeal this.” And I couldn't help myself; I turned around and I said, “Sweetheart, you can’t appeal stupidity. I'm sorry, but that's not one of the grounds for appeal.” (Author laughs) And I got up and left.
It's amazing with some people. But I tell you, I work the hardest for those because I want to be able to overcome any bias I may have.

One Defender adds: “I have clients where we are facing a mountain of evidence and the person insists upon going forward. And I say, ‘What do you see that I don't see here? You’re about to get clubbed in the head when you go to trial, because the evidence is overwhelming.’ And that has been something that has been frustrating. But the funny thing is that I think earlier on in my career, I would get into really harsh conversations with people; and I found that the more experience I got, doing that is an absolute waste of your time. I don't want to say I've gotten Zen about it; I haven't. But I think now when I encounter a difficult client, I’m like, ‘Let's sit down and talk about the case, from A-Z, and really go through everything that you're facing. Let's talk about what a trial really looks like.’ Or if it's not a good trial case, [then I say], ‘Let's talk about what you’re declining to take and what the alternatives are.’”

It frustrates Defenders when clients take pleas and don’t follow through on the conditions of the plea. One Defender shares: “There are a number of times when ... it was like pulling teeth to get an offer of a non-jail program for a client, and then the client would stay in the program for like two days. I'm like, ‘What are you doing here?’” Another Defender states: “I get frustrated when I care more than they do. I can’t care more about a client’s case than they do.” The Defender then shares this story:

I had a client—have a client—who is, simply put, a hothead. She’s out in the streets wiling out. And I’ve said to her, “You’re 23. You have a young child. You have stuff to do. You can't just be out here in these streets, doing all this craziness.” She was charged with assault because she got into an argument with a woman who lives in a building that her friends live in. She hangs out in that building. So one day they got into an argument and the client end up punching her in the face. The woman fell back on to a radiator and really, really hurt herself.
I didn't think she'd get an offer on her case because the injuries were just bad. Yet, they offered a conditional plea, where she would plea to a violation and, if she successfully completed counseling sessions and community service, she could get an ACD. I liked the offer, but it seemed like it would be too much for her. They wanted ten counseling sessions and five days of community service. And I get it; she punched somebody in the face, and they were injured pretty badly, so I get it. But I knew it was going to be too much for her to do, so I tried to negotiate. I wanted her to be allowed to do some sessions without a plea, and then get an ACD after doing a few. I preferred that, because if she pled to the violation and then screwed up, she'd have been exposed to fifteen days in jail.
So I told my client, “Hey, I'm going to sign you up. Just do, like, four sessions. Then I’ll be able to go to the prosecutor and say, “Look, she has all this going on. She has a special-needs child. She has all these appointments she has to take him to. She’s a young woman; she doesn't really have help like that. She already did four sessions on her own without a mandate. Can she do two more and that be enough?” So I'm trying to go from ten counseling sessions to six, and from five days of community service to zero. I finally got the prosecutor to agree to this, and all my client had to do was do the sessions. But a whole year passes and she just keeps playing around and playing around and getting rearrested. And it’s just like, do you not care? If you don’t want to do it, just tell me. I’m trying to help her, trying to avoid any kind of conviction, trying to avoid the possibility of her being exposed to jail time, and she just really didn't care.

A number of Defenders are particularly frustrated when they expend energy to resolve a case favorably for a specific client, only to then have that client ruin the deal by getting rearrested. One Defender notes: “There were times where I got frustrated and angry with clients. I had clients where I went out of my way to get a certain disposition and then they screwed the whole thing up by either getting rearrested or just doing some dumb shit. And I’m just like, you just fucked the whole thing up! So yeah, there were definitely people who I’m like, you’ve got to be kidding me.” Another Defender concurs: “How many times do you work out a really good deal for your client, and they're about to take the deal and they get arrested again? And [it’s worse when] they get arrested for something more serious. And you're like, ‘Wait, what happened?!’ And they're like, ‘Well, I didn't mean to, but I really wanted that necklace.’ Yeah, I had that happen. It was his third indictment.” (Author reacts)

Some Defenders get frustrated when clients get rearrested generally, either while they have cases open or after their cases have gotten resolved. One Defender remarks: “Some clients keep getting arrested; that frustrates me.” Another Defender agrees: “It would usually be the repeat customers, like the clients who continue to violate the order of protection. It gets frustrating because it’s like, dude, she doesn’t want to date you anymore. You have to stop. Those would be the most frustrating, when it goes from a bad situation to poor decisions that are keeping the client here. Sometimes it’s like, ‘You have your own apartment and you're actually sleeping with someone else. Why do you keep calling her?!’” Another Defender gives this example: “I have a client where I know his girlfriend, and this is a case where his girlfriend keeps getting him arrested because of whatever they're going through, and then we go through all this crap and the case gets dismissed, and then he goes back to her and ends up in the same thing again. Now I know I should not be frustrated about that … but in my head, especially when it's a client that I have worked with, and they're back in this situation again, then it's kind of frustrating for me.”

Some Defenders are uniquely frustrated by white clients. One Defender answers: “Another thing is that, a lot of times, with our white clients or our white Latino clients, they and their families take on this attitude of ‘I don’t belong here; I'm not a criminal; blah, blah, blah.’ And it's like, yeah, I do think this is stupid, but we also have to deal with the reality; and the reality is that your actions do make out these charges. And we have to talk about the reality. You talking about you not being like ‘these people’ is unproductive.” Another Defender notes: “Then there are the racist clients, and I think a lot of people debate this. I'm dealing with it right now, where my white client called me a thug and all of this stuff. For me, I'm not going to subject myself to that, and I don't feel bad. They're going to have an attorney, and that's it. They have a right to an attorney, but it does not have to be me. I don't have to take what is, in my opinion in this circumstance, clearly abusive behavior from the client. It's not good for the client. It's not good for me or my ability to do my job.”

One Defender speaks to frustrations with clients’ families:

Another frustrating aspect is that sometimes family oversteps. For me, I think family having information is not a bad thing; and oftentimes it's a good thing, because they help our clients stay on path or whatever. But then you have some family that takes it too far. So then I always had that personal struggle of figuring out when do I cut a particular family member off, even though potentially they can help our clients stay on track. So that can get frustrating….
Or a lot of times, white family members will be like, “Oh my God, is he or she gonna be okay in there? I mean, they're not like those people.” Mind you, their family member got a rap sheet longer than most of my other clients. So that can be fucking annoying, because it’s just like, dog! For you to be here, especially as a white person, that means shit went real left for you. So we have to deal with where we’re at. So that could be frustrating too at times….

When Defenders get frustrated with their clients, they react in various ways. Occasionally, Defenders lose their cool or take things personally. One Defender states: “I won't say in a sense I'm taking it personally. Well, I've taken some things personally, I'm not going to lie. When I really put my all in a case—of course, at the end of the day, the client has to make a decision that's best for them—and then I get relieved off of a case, I might have taken that personally for a few minutes….” Another Defender responds this way: “I can't say that I've never lost my cool. That would not be true. I have lost my cool. We've gotten to screaming matches; but then I always show up. It's sort of like family, right? They don't get to pick us; and we, for the most part, don't get to pick them. But we're stuck together in this very intimate relationship until it ends. It's my responsibility to try to do the best I can by you. That's sort of a familial relationship; and when you're in that sort of relationship, you can fuss and fight, but you need to always show up for that person.” The Defender whose client messed up a deal by stealing a necklace admits: “The [necklace] client, I told him I needed to take a time out and not speak to him for a little while. And then I came and had a conversation.”

Many Defenders have candid conversations with their clients. One Defender states: “When I am frustrated, I deal with my clients as if I’ve known them for years. I am very direct with them; I don’t sugarcoat things and I don’t pull any punches. I also tell them that I can’t care about their case more than they do.” Another Defender agrees: “I will talk to them calmly because that’s my personality. I’ll be like, ‘Listen, you said you were going to have it yesterday. I gave you the entire week. You say you want to end your case; well, we really need this document’—or need the client to do whatever they haven’t done yet—‘so we can end this case. You need to realize that the only one that's really suffering here is you, because you're keeping the case open longer than you wanted to.’”

Some Defenders share different approaches they take to mediate conflicts between themselves and their clients when they are frustrated. One Defender states: “A lot of the time, I just stop talking because I feel like when I keep going, then no one is listening to each other and it's just more combative in nature. So I sit and let them get everything that they have to say out. Then before I say anything, I let the space sit in silence, so then it becomes awkward and they're like, ‘OK, you can talk now.’ and I'm like, ‘Thank you’ and then I continue. I'll say what I need to say, and then if they try to interrupt me, I'll tell them: ‘Listen, I let you speak, so just hear me out.’” Another Defender notes: “There's definitely been some times where [I’ve said], ‘Look, I can't have this conversation at this time.’ And I think it's important for us to always be aware of what our energy is like before going into a situation with a client, because it could also be that I'm pissed about something. I could have had a hard day, and if I've had a hard day and my client who's going through a lot of shit are in the same room, I might not be at my best self.” Adds another Defender: “So sometimes in a conversation, I have to say, ‘This conversation is no longer fruitful, so we're going to have to talk about this at another point in time.’”

Many Defenders recognize, however, that their frustrations ultimately lie with the criminal judicial system. One Defender explains: “Well, of course you get frustrated…. It's not that you're frustrated with the client—it comes off as being frustrated with the client—but you're really frustrated with the system that is just unfair, and you're doing the best you can….” Answers another Defender: “I think the thing that I always try to remember is that [a large portion of] my job is to absorb bullshit; and a lot of times, I'm the only person my client can lash out at without facing severe consequences, right? If my client is in court [and he] lashes out the judge, he’s in trouble. If he lashes out at the court officer, he’s in trouble. If he lashes out of the prosecutor, he’s in trouble. If he lashes out at the complainant, he's in trouble….” This Defender gives the following answer:

[I was frustrated] that they were in a cycle that neither I nor they could break. So the frustration wasn't at them; it was understood that it was on a deeper level, which can be especially hard because it wasn't just their circumstance. It was mine too, even with the "Esq." behind my name. So that's where the real frustration came. Everything else is built on top of that. So with the arguments and the disagreements and whatever I or we were angry about, what I know and what I've always known is that the frustration is because 90% of the clients look like me; and as people that look like us, everything we're doing here can't stop this from really happening. And that was the ultimate frustration….

A few more responses:

Defender Oh yeah, yes. I think when people looked at me and thought I didn't know what I was talking about, that I was easily manipulated, because I was a woman, because I was Black, because I was young. Some clients tried to use their masculinity to manipulate me. That is frustrating because it’s like, here we go again. But that was just what people do to try to manipulate others when they trying to get what they want, when they're afraid, and when they don't trust you. So I tried not to take it personally.

Defender Absolutely. Oh goodness. One of the things that frustrates me with my clients is when there is mistrust; and I don't mean at the beginning, because you don't know me in the beginning and trust is something that's earned. I respect that. But when we get down the road—six, 12, 18 months down the road—and there's still this mistrust and distrust, I think that that is just a barrier; [and that’s frustrating] ….

Do your clients ever get frustrated with you? If so, what gets them frustrated? How do they react when they are frustrated? How do you deal with their frustrations?

Every Defender to respond to these questions answers the first answer in the affirmative. Clients get frustrated with Defenders because their attorneys are the only people they can gripe at without reprisal. One Defender captures the sentiment this way: “They're … frustrated with me because I'm the one that's there. I kind of represent their situation. I'm the one person that they can talk to. They can't talk to the police officers that arrested them, the prosecutors that charged them, or the judges that are handling their cases. You can get frustrated with them, but those aren't players that you can engage or become frustrated with. So it's me.”

Clients get frustrated with Defenders for a variety of reasons. Clients commonly become frustrated with Defenders over matters that Defenders do not control. One Defender answers: “I think sometimes it was the limitations [in what I can do]. It's not like I can get everything they want. The system is really designed not to give them what they want….” Another Defender notes: “There are some who get frustrated with me, but I think it's more so because of the stress of having an open case. Because when I talk to them about why they're feeling frustrated—and I will ask if there is anything that I did that they think I could have done differently—it always comes down to being frustrated that they got arrested for bullshit. That's really what it comes down to.” Adds another Defender: “Clients will get frustrated because they think I can do more than what I can actually do.”

Relatedly, clients that are detained in jail while their cases are pending are frustrated when Defenders are unable to get them out. One Defender states: “They get frustrated because sometimes they see me as a miracle worker and not an attorney, and it's hard to explain to them, especially when they're sitting in jail, why I can't just tell the judge to release them and they get released.” Another Defender explains how “there are times where if I had a client that was in, they might be frustrated that they weren't getting out. And I'm like, ‘Look, I can only tell you what the offer is. I can try to negotiate something better, but until we go to trial, I can't change your circumstance, like I can't. I can't do anything.’ I think sometimes people wanted a different result, and the prosecutor is making this offer and not giving us what we're asking for. I will try to fight of course to get what my clients want, but there's no guarantee. It's not like I had the power to do that, you know?” Another Defender concurs: “I have one particular client now who is locked up, and he's just like, ‘Oh, you should do a bail review to get me out.’ And I'm just like, ‘They're not going to release you. Plus, you have a federal hold;⁵ so even if they exonerate the bail—which they're not [going to do]—you're still not going home.’ So it's things like that.”

Clients become frustrated because Defenders are often the bearers of bad news. One Defender thinks clients get frustrated “when I wasn't able to give them the answer that they wanted, or when I wasn't able to get the deal that they wanted, because what they wanted was probably unrealistic. There was a point in my career where I had to just stop and be like, don't sell people dreams; be realistic, because I think that I wanted to give people hope, but I had to learn how to modulate that down so that there wouldn't be that kind of frustration….” Another Defender concurs: “Then obviously, when things don't look good, you get frustrated with the bearer of the news; and just generally, we do represent the system in a lot of ways to our clients. So, I think it's expected that there would be visible frustrations that come my way.” Adds another Defender: “I’m sure they did [get frustrated with me] when they didn’t hear what they wanted to hear. I always tell people I have the most depressing job in the world, because I very seldom deliver good news.”

Clients also become frustrated when they do not feel heard. One Defender notes how clients get frustrated “when they feel like I'm not listening to them, or some feel like I'm not doing enough.” Another Defender states: “For the most part, clients want to be heard. They'll say they want to have their day in court because they want to be heard. They want their side of the story to be heard. There are spaces for that, and then there are spaces when that can't happen. Like sometimes in arraignments, we can't sit there and have a five-hour conversation about everything. Our job is to get the most important things that’s going to help them at that particular point in time to not get bail set. So they want to get into certain discussions about things and we’re like, ‘Okay, we just need this information. We’ll talk about that later. We’ll have a meeting in the office and we’ll talk more about it.’ And sometimes they get frustrated because they want to tell you their story and it may be long; and you have to say, ‘Okay, we can’t have this discussion right now.’”

Sometimes clients get frustrated because Defenders do not return phone calls that they—and sometimes family members—make. One Defender remarks: “They get mad at us for not returning their phone calls; some clients want us to be able to call every time. It's lovely when a person has family, but then like four family members might call for one case. I'm getting better at saying, ‘Well, we could all just be on one call, but I can't talk to all of you individually because that's just not efficient.’ So they get mad about our time that we can spend with them.” Another Defender states: “They get frustrated because I can’t call everybody right away. I don’t do a lot of phone time with people; I call clients when I have something to talk about. Some attorneys do that; they’ll constantly call all of their clients to give them updates even though nothing has changed. I call my clients when I have something important to tell them, or when it’s trial time. I want the calls to my clients to be important calls; so when they get a call from me, they know to take it because they know I’m calling for a reason, not just to shoot the crap with them about how it’s going.”

Some Defenders think clients are frustrated when they get called out for their behavior. One Defender gives this answer:

Sometimes clients get frustrated when you call them out on their nonsense. There was this one client I had who was frustrated with me because I would confront him on his bullshit, and he didn't like that. So he said, “Oh maybe I need a male attorney. I just don't have good luck with women in this country.” And I’m like, “Alright. You're trying to tell me that it's a conspiracy, and that everyone is lying on you. Yet, you have seven different dockets, seven different cases. There are nine individual instances alleged, with different complaining witnesses on each of them. So you're telling me that twelve people are just lying on you just because? Complete strangers came together, they conspired to lie against you, and they made allegations that are similar in different periods of the year? Really?”
So when I confront them, they get all upset: “Oh, you’re just trying to get me convicted. You work with the judge, you work with the DA, blah blah blah.” So I’m with the DA because I’m not selling you a dream? I'm with the DA because I'm telling you like it is? Because I’m telling you how a jury will see it? I feel like if I have tunnel vision, I'm not going to be of any help for you. If I can only see it our way, or see it your way, I'm not going to be of any help to you, because then I can't anticipate the other argument. I can't answer the other argument.

On the flip side, sometimes clients get frustrated when Defenders—or their public defenders—mess up. One Defender explains:

I'm sure clients are frustrated with us. People don't return phone calls, people don't follow up, people don't hand over paperwork. Clients are kind of in a limbo; here they're in this awful situation, but they don't have the connection and communication with the lawyer that they should have. And I've been guilty of this too, being just overwhelmed; and you just have to prioritize. You look at something and say, okay, this is so bad. I have to put my energy into this matter. Right now, this other matter could be on the back burner. But a petit larceny is important to the person who's accused of it. They do not understand; they may not get the attention at the time that you're working on your rape case or your murder case or your robbery case; they may not know that you're going to eventually get a disorderly conduct, so you’re not worried about this case. That's the way we disrespect our clients, too.

When clients get frustrated, they react in a variety of ways. One Defender explains: “How they react depends. There are some that yell; I don't deal with that. There are some that just hang up. There are some that will keep talking and will still have a conversation with you about it, but they'll just keep telling you that they're frustrated that they can't get what they think that they need.” Another Defender notes: “Usually it's over the phone; but even if it's in person, sometimes they yell….” Another Defender states: “When they get frustrated, they might yell, or they might cry, or they might call my supervisors, and then they have to talk to me anyways.” One Defender tells this story:

I had one client—I don't know what I did at arraignments—but he called my supervisor and complained to my supervisor that I did not believe him. He actually called my office and found my supervisor to say this to him, to complain about me. Mind you, his case eventually was dismissed. My supervisor came back and told me, and I was like, what?! He just said, “She didn't believe that I was innocent.” That kind of bothered me, because I was like, what made him think that? I didn't particularly care for this guy, but I didn't have a thought about whether he was guilty or innocent. I maybe thought his story was weird and questionable.
But he definitely called and complained. So that made me more mindful, because sometimes my face kind of reveals what I'm thinking.

Defenders deal with client frustrations in different ways. One Defender answers: “When they are frustrated, I try to explain to them what things are like and how the system works. And what I usually find, at least for clients in the misdemeanor world, is [that] I’ll explain to them, ‘Look around the courtroom. Look at how many people there are here. There are five court parts for trials. How many cases do you think are going to get tried? How long do you think it's going to take to get one of those five parts? And this is only one courtroom that you're looking at right now.’ Most of the time, when you put it in those sorts of visual terms, they're like, oh, that's why things are so slow here.” Another Defender states: “I deal with their frustrations by trying to hear them out. I'm not one to try and belabor a point and make someone see my point of view. I let them say what they have to say…. [I try to] maybe see it from their point of view. I have clients who tell me to go do investigations; and even though I know it's pointless, I go. They tell me to call people who they say are witnesses; and then it turns out that the ‘witness’ said that they plotted with my client to commit the crime.” (Author laughs) Adds another Defender: “When they got frustrated, I listened. I listened, because what else was I going to do? I’m not going to yell at you. I don’t have time for that.”

Some more responses:

Defender Yeah, that happens. That's part of it. You recognize that and you try to get at what they're frustrated about. They're in a tough situation, and they want out. They're facing a lot of time. They're working their brain, thinking, how can I get out of this situation? …
If they can sort of realize that you are really looking out for them and trying to keep their best interests in mind and do your job properly, they'll appreciate that, and they can move on from that….

Defender Same thing when we're in [court] and you're telling them an offer, and then they want to come and talk to you for a long period of time. And it’s like, “Okay, we can't really talk about this. It's not private right now. We don't have privacy. We don't have the time; I have other courtrooms I have to run to. Let's set a meeting up.” Sometimes that causes frustration because they're feeling like you're not making time for them. Other times it could be if they're calling you and you're not returning their phone call as quick as possible. They get upset because you're not responding to their calls or to their inquiries.
They get frustrated when you tell them offers. They think that you're the one that's giving them the offer. You have to explain to them that you may not want to take this offer. You may want to go to trial. But I have to still tell you the offer because this is part of what my job description is. And they get frustrated because they're like, “I don't want to hear the offer. I told you I want to go to trial. I don't want that.”
So there are varying reasons why they may get frustrated with you. In terms of dealing with their frustrations, I try to just give them the space to air their grievance or speak their mind, and then I say, “Okay, I understand that you want to tell me X, Y, and Z; but because of the time constraints, because we're here in court, or because we're in arraignments, this is not the time to do it. It's not private. Remember, anything you say, people can hear it. They can use it against you. It's better if we can sit down and we have time to speak one on one where you'll have more time. You [can bring] documentation, and you'll have more time to talk to me about it.” So kind of just allowing them the opportunity to a point to speak their mind, but then explaining to them it's not the proper time or place. And then giving them the option to have the proper time and place to speak their mind and air their frustration.

Defender Sure. I'm not the most emotional person, so something that clients have said to me many times is “Why aren't you more upset?” And I say, “I'm upset, I'm frustrated, I'm angry; but I'm the lawyer. I can't be in court yelling and screaming, and I'm not going to be crying with you; but I feel your pain, even though you might not see it reflected in my behavior. I definitely feel the pain.”
So that's one frustration that people have had with me. I say this to young lawyers who are very emotional, “You can't get emotional for every single case, because we have lots of losses in our careers and in our line of work.” If an emergency room physician cried every time a patient died, they wouldn't be able to do their job. And so we, as lawyers, can't cry every time we lose a case, because then we wouldn't be able to do our jobs. And maybe that's why people burn out….

Defender Oh, I'm sure they do. I'm sure they do. I'm just thinking about how many conversations I've had about a client wanting their cell phone back after they’ve been arrested and their cell phone has been seized, and not understanding that I can't just walk into the police department and get their cell phone back for them. It doesn't work that way.

Defender I think a lot of their frustration comes from the circumstances themselves, not necessarily me. I am the messenger; I'm the mouthpiece. I'm always the bearer of bad news from the beginning: “You've been charged with X crimes.” “They're asking for this amount of bail.” And so I think that that is very frustrating for my clients. I ethically have to relay whatever the offer is on a case to my client. Even if the offer is state prison, I have to tell you about it. We have to talk about it. And I think that even hearing those words come out of my mouth can be frustrating…. [In the] COVID context, I have a lot of clients that are extremely frustrated because they're not getting due process right now….
I think that being incarcerated can be frustrating, and sometimes I get the brunt of their family saying things and not doing things, especially when it comes to making bail. That has also been something that I've been dealing with quite a bit lately: families will be like, “I'll do anything to make the bail,” and “Just explain it to me,” and “I'll take a loan,” and “I'll do this” and “I'll do that” and blah, blah, blah. They make these promises to the clients and then it doesn't come to fruition; and then the clients get very frustrated because they remain incarcerated, because there's no one to make the bail for them. And I think that sometimes there's nobody else to scream at, because there's nobody really giving them that sort of uninterrupted face time, especially as we talk about COVID and families not really having access to people who are incarcerated. But even pre-COVID, an incarcerated client’s family isn't necessarily doing what they said that they were going to do; and then I take on the brunt of that frustration….

Defender All the time. They think I don't understand. They think I don’t understand their poor decision making. They think I don't understand their circumstances. They think that I've been living in the lap of luxury my entire life; and that I'm this little upper middle-class brother who had it good his entire life and doesn't know what the streets are like, or what dealing with cops is like, or any of those things. I don't tell him how, when I was in high school coming home from basketball practice, I got stopped by the cops; and he pulled me and my friends out and put a shotgun to the back of my head and said he was gonna blow my brains all over the street. (Author reacts) They don't know those kind of things have happened in my life…. They think that I haven't experienced any of those things that they experienced. So that frustrates them.
When clients are frustrated, they usually yell. But the thing is, I'm not like most lawyers; I don't let my clients yell at me. Most lawyers say, “Oh, they're frustrated; let them get it out.” I have too much respect for my clients to do that. I respect them as human beings. I think that shows a total lack of respect for someone when you don't demand good behavior out of them. Some folks are like, oh, he's African American; he's Hispanic. He's had it hard his whole life. Go ahead and let him behave poorly. No; I respect you enough to tell you that you're behaving poorly, and I'm not going to sit here and take that. You will respect me as I will respect you. You don't talk to me like I'm 12 years old and I won't talk to you like you’re 12 years old. You don't scream at me, and I won't scream at you.
If I have a client, I will get in a client's face just as easily as a client will get in my face. I know that's not the political thing these days, but that’s not the way it works with me. We're going to show each other mutual respect. That's what we're going to do; and if we're not going to do that, you're going to get out of my face and I'm going to get out of yours, and we'll get back together again once we've calmed down.
But again, I honestly think that's a respect thing. I think it's because I respect my clients. And I think that many times, these whole little bleeding heart liberal white folks don't respect their clients; and so they don't demand anything. If you don't demand anything out of someone, then what do you expect to get out of them? You’re not going to get good behavior.

Defender [How do I deal with their frustrations?] I guess the first thing I do—if I can, when I'm trying to be the best lawyer I can, if I'm not just getting angry immediately, but if I can—the thing I try to do is to pause and to sort of think, what's happening in this dynamic that we're at this place, and what role do I play in that? Maybe sometimes it's just taking that moment and thinking, okay, wait; what if I said the thing in a different way? What if I did something differently to show my client something? Whatever the thing that's causing the problem, I reflect on it.
I think working in a team is so beneficial. The holistic representation, team modeling, or whatever; people love to talk about it, but I really do believe in it. I think having social workers when we represent our clients is as helpful for the client as it is for the lawyer, because I spend just as much time asking a social worker to directly speak with my client as I do speaking to the social workers…. When there is an impasse between myself and my client, having that other perspective on that relationship I find invaluable.
Sometimes it involves going to the community of the client and talking to the clients’ family members or parents or partners….

FN 5: A “federal hold” is a detainer issued by the federal government; a client with a federal hold is wanted by the government for some reason, like if the client is facing federal charges or is suspected of having violated federal probation or federal parole.

Have your clients ever expressed their perceptions about public defenders generally?

Defenders answer this question with a resounding yes. One Defender states that clients think “that we ain't shit, that we’re not real lawyers.” Another Defender answers: “Oh yes. We’re trying to be D.A.’s, we get paid more for getting people locked up.” Answers another Defender: “Oh yeah, many times. The notion in most working-class communities is that if you don't have the money to pay for something, you're not going to get quality. That's a real perception: you're not paying for it, so why should the person work so hard for you? It’s a hard perception to overcome.” Adds another Defender: “Oh, many a times. ‘Oh, you're just a legal aid; I should've gotten a paid lawyer.’ I remember getting an acquittal on a serious case one time and the client goes, ‘That was a big win … for a legal aid.’” Another Defender remarks: “Oh yeah. All the time. [I’ve been told that] public defenders are working with the DA: ‘You guys [are] trying to send me to jail. You guys [are] having lunch with the DA trying to work out a deal….’ ‘Plea-gal Aid.’ I've heard it all. And I've had clients tell me, ‘Are you really a public defender? You dress too nicely to be a public defender.’ I'm like, ‘Yeah, man, I'm a public defender.’ I've gotten it all.”

Defenders largely understand why public defenders have the rap they have. One Defender explains: “I think at one point in time, some of the reputation was well deserved not because the attorneys weren't great, but just because of how the public defender system was set up. There were overwhelming caseloads. There wasn't vertical representation.⁶ There were these problems that, as time evolved, have slowly been fixed or are getting fixed.” Adds another Defender: “I think a lot of clients are just not clear on what your motivation is for the work you do or why you're doing it, and that does make a difference to people. If they're paying somebody, they at least know that that lawyer’s motivation is money. It's a very obvious motivation. It's a motivation that people can relate to and think is an actual motivator. For people, the more money they make, the better their reputation.” One Defender is more succinct: “They don’t like the attorneys that represented them before, so that puts all of us in that category.”

Nonetheless, Defenders routinely overcome the bad rap through visibly stellar advocacy. One Defender notes that “people who have been through the system a lot know when attorneys are working for them or not. They can tell really quickly if the attorney is good or not. I think it’s based on what their background is and where they’re coming from. I’ve had plenty of experiences where clients in the audience, both indigent clients and otherwise, ask me if they can hire me; and I constantly have to explain to them that I am a public defender and thus not for hire. They want to hire me because they see that I am tough and am not afraid of these judges; I will tell off these judges in a second.” Another Defender concurs: “They have all kinds of crazy perceptions of public defenders until they get to know you. Once my clients get to know me, they know they [have a good attorney]. I have had so few clients ever asked for me to be relieved, because they know that I'm going to work my ass off for them; and that's all they want.” This Defender expounds:

I learned this when I went to private practice: I usually was fairly quiet. I'd make my argument and leave it alone. The judge would make the ruling and then that would be it, because I know that's really the way it goes. Once a judge makes a ruling, you're not going to get them to change their mind, especially in arraignments or whatever. But there came a time when I was in private practice, and I realized that clients want to hear you argue. They want to hear you fight. That makes them feel good. That makes them feel like, yeah, I got somebody in there. So then I took on that persona also. “No judge, this is clearly unjust!” The same result happened; nothing changed. But my client felt like, wow, he really fights for me. And then you're walking out of the courtroom, and people are asking for your card. They think, he's a fighter. This guy fights, man.

A few more Defender responses:

Defender Oh yes. Oh man, you know when you first start, you get so offended when they're like, “Oh, he’s not a real lawyer.” I'll tell you this. I sent an investigator out on an investigation and to meet the client, and the client remarked to the investigator, “Do we really have to do all of this?” The investigator said, “Yes, your lawyer says that we have to.” The client says, “Lawyer? He's not a lawyer. He's a public defender.” So it’s like that. I don't know if it's most, but a lot of clients do not realize that we're lawyers. They just don't.
I had a guy once who had some stupid petty offense. I think it was like a marijuana case. It was something that was not a big deal. He got arrested, and we arraigned the case at arraignment. So he had his next court date—and I'm a new attorney—and I go and I conference the case with the ADA and I found out that the offer was an ACD. I always find out what the offer or recommendation is first to before speaking to the client; in general, that was my practice. So I call out the client’s name, and he tells me that he retained an attorney…. I was like, man, that's messed up. And I just said, “Okay, where's your lawyer?” And he said, “I'll let you know when he gets here.” And I saw [the new lawyer] and told him that I already conferenced the case, and the offer was an ACD. And that client probably paid between two and five grand for that…. They don't think we're lawyers, man; and it's a lot of times to their detriment….

Defender [Clients] are hesitant to tell me certain things or sign releases [for documentation pertaining to them]. They’re like, “Why do you want these records?” I’ll say, “So I can help you to mitigate sentencing exposure.” And they'll say, “Oh, my other lawyers never did these things”; and I'm like, “Well, then they weren't doing their job properly. I'm trying to do my job properly and fully.” I feel like as public defenders, we're always fighting against the negative stereotypes that are out there. It's a rare occasion where it's like, “Oh, you got a [public defender]? She's going to fight so hard for you and work so well for you. It's going to be great.” It's always fighting the negative stereotypes.

Defender Oh yeah. It's funny, because the ones who like you will say, “You know, you're really good. You should go into private practice. I don't know why you're wasting your time being a public defender.” The ones that don't like you are like, “Ah, should’ve figured: legal aid.”

Defender Of course, they have, all the time: “You’re public pretenders”; “You work with the DA”; “I bet you're leaving here to go out to lunch with the DA”; “Y’all can’t be trusted”; “You get paid per conviction.” I've had some very unflattering, disrespectful things said about me and what I do to the judges….

Defender Yes. They've said things like, “You work with the DA.” “Y'all are both paid by the same people, so you all are in cahoots.” “I've heard that you make more money by making deals with the DA, so your salary is determined by how many deals you make with the DA. So you wanna make deals because you wanna make more money.” “The judge won't really pay attention to you because you're a public defender.” “The judge won't really pay attention to you because you're a Black woman.” “The judge won't pay attention to you because you wear braids or an afro or dreads.” “You and the prosecutors went to the same law school, and so y'all are friends. Y'all go out and eat and drink and talk about these cases. So I got no wins.” “Y'all don't really work hard. You have too many cases, so you can't take mine on and give it any real focus.” They call us public pretenders.
If you as the defense attorney were to try a bunch of cases with a prosecutor over time, there is some sort of relationship that develops. If clients would see that, they would automatically think that that relationship meant more to you than their case. So you would always have to be very careful about that. There are some lawyers who would spend time talking to prosecutors outside of the courtroom, but would tell them while they're inside the courtroom, “Let's just keep it business.”

Defender Yeah. I think it happened a lot more when I was newer. But yeah, I mean, everything from “You work with the prosecutor,” “You work for the court,” “You get paid when I take a plea,” “I don't want a public defender. I want a lawyer,” like you're not actually a lawyer, like you didn't go to law school and pass the bar exam.
But I do think that that perception is changing a bit. It's still there, but I think because our caseloads have come down and because we do have more access to resources and we are able to do more for our clients, I think that there are more opportunities now to show clients all of the ways that we can help them legally than there were 15 years ago. Fifteen years ago, there was so much that we couldn't do. Our clients were in jail. Our clients were taking worse pleas. We had no discovery. We were having conversations, and we’re like, “I don't know what evidence they have. I'm sorry. I don't have any discovery.” And the client is like, “How do you not have the paperwork? You don't have the police report?!” And I say, “I know. I've filed a motion asking for it. The judge told the DA—you heard the judge told the DA two court dates in a row— “Get them their discovery.” But [the DA] doesn't have to.”
We're able to do a better job now, so I think that has helped [pierce] the perception.

FN 6: Vertical representation is a public defense model in which one attorney represents the client at every stage of the criminal judicial process, from arraignment to the AP part to trial. This is in contrast to horizontal representation, in which a client is represented by one attorney in arraignments, a different attorney in the AP part, and a different attorney at trial. Public defender offices in New York City have vertical representation; in places like Nassau County and Philadelphia, the public defense offices have—or at least recently had—horizontal representation.

How does your race factor in how clients deal with you?

Defender answers to this question fit into two main categories. Many Defenders speak to how their race works to their benefit in forming relationships with clients. One Defender states: “I think that clients tend to be way more comfortable with me, especially clients of the same race. So for the most part, I think it works in my favor.” Another Defender agrees: “I think it might be more of a cultural thing in some ways. I see it when I talk to my client, where I can tell my client the same thing a white attorney would tell their client, but it’s better received coming from me.” Concurs another Defender: “I think it plays a big part. I think that most of my clients look like me; they are my color, like their mother or their sister.... They are my color. So, it’s easier to relate.” Adds another Defender: “Culturally, when they know that I’m not just a person of color but a person of color that’s from New York City, who maybe understands everyday life in urban society, they feel more comfortable to open up. With me, clients realize, I don’t have explain nothin’ to this woman, she gets it. She has my back and she understands me, and she understands my struggle.” One particular Defender who speaks Spanish offers this response:

When it’s a person of color who speaks Spanish, and I speak Spanish back, I think that definitely gives them relief that they’re not going to have to struggle through this conversation with someone who they may not understand, or someone who they don’t even know if they’re translating properly. So I just see the sigh of relief in their face; they’re like, Oh, you speak Spanish; oh thank God.

Another Defender adds the following:

When I'm face to face with a client, I could form a real bond with the client. I could really express myself how I want to express myself. Most of the time I'm very professional, but when I feel like it's necessary for me to kind of break through a barrier, I could sit down and have a real conversation with someone like we’re on the street. Not necessarily saying that we're fighting, but I could speak to them how I speak to a Black person. Some people think it's weird; some call it code switching. I don't know. But I speak to my clients how they would understand me, how I think it would be effective for them.
I feel like it's like a mask. When I'm at work, I have to put on one mask; and then there are certain times where I have to take off my work mask and I have to put on my “me” mask. Then I'm like, alright, let's have a real discussion about what's going on. I think it's beneficial at times because I could say, “Listen, homie; this is what's going on.” Then I could go into court and I could speak the way people speak in court. I think that gives clients a little bit more confidence that I was able to break it down for them in a way that they would really understand.

Finally, one Defender shares this frequent experience:

It’s funny. I've had clients be super, super disrespectful to me on the phone, because they've never met me. I'll call, introduce myself, say, “I just got transferred your case”; and they’re super disrespectful. And then they meet me in person and they're like, “Oh you’re Black? I thought you were a white woman on the phone.” And now we’re best friends. (Author laughs) I swear it happened more than once in my career. More than once they thought I was a white woman over the phone. And I'm like, really? [My name] sounds white to you? I don't know. They're like, “You could have been Jewish. I don't know.” And I'm like, “Okay, I used to get [called] valley girl in high school or whatever, so I guess I get it.” I don't think I sound white, but okay. And it totally flips the script, when they meet me and see that I'm a Black woman. So I think it actually builds a lot of trust in my clients.

On the flip side, many Defenders note that their race frequently works against them. It particularly dis-serves them with white clients. One Defender states: “I’ve had a few white clients where I have walked into the booth when I'm first meeting them at arraignments; and I feel the vibe. Their attitude is, you can get me out of here tonight and that's cool, but we're not gonna be partners in this. I am going to retain a private lawyer. This is something I've picked up just doing this for a while, and that's fine. I used to take it personally, but now I don't take it personally at all.” Another Defender recalls: “I think I've only had one white guy where I sat down in front of him and he asked me if I was a public defender. I told him, yes, and he said, ‘Bye-bye.’ I said, ‘Okay, deuces.’ I am not going to sit here and try to make you want me to take your case.” One Defender remembers how “I’ve had a white client who called me the n-word.” Another Defender notes: “I've had white clients in the pens [dropping the n-word]; and then here I come and then it gets quiet. I'll say, ‘Oh no, keep that conversation going.’ They’re like, ‘Oh, I didn't mean it,’ and I say, ‘Yeah you did.’” One Defender provides this anecdote:

I remember one time this I had to get off this case; this white client that I had, he was so disrespectful. He was just so disrespectful and ridiculous. I was trying to explain to him one time about the difference between an A misdemeanor and a B misdemeanor. And he was arguing with me telling me that I was incorrect. He was so disrespectful and ridiculous. And I remember I went to my white male supervisor—this was when I was a new attorney—and he told me, “Oh well, just continue to work with him. He’s just treating you like you’re a little sister or something.” I was like, oh my God.
So then I went to two of my Black colleagues, and they were like, “What?! No, get off that case. Write down everything that he said, everything that he did. Write it down in your file, put it on the record, and get off the case.” I'm telling you, God bless all the Black attorneys that were in my office, because I don't know what I would've done without them.

Another Defender shares an experience she had with two white clients:

I'll say I've had one white woman look at me—[I was working night arraignments, I entered the booth, and] I said, “Hi, Ms. So-and-so. I'm [My Name]. I'm your lawyer from [a particular public defense office]”—and she just said, “I want another lawyer.” And I'm like, “What?” “I don't want you. I want another lawyer.” That's happened once, and I could only think it's because of the color of my skin. I didn't do anything else. So I responded, “Okay, fine. You won't get me tonight, and you won't see a judge tonight because nobody else is taking your case.” (Author laughs) My supervisor was down with that too. He was a white man, and he was just like, “Oh, fuck her.”
I've had another client who was a lovely white man. Mentally ill, but when he's on meds, great guy. He had all these tattoos on his face, and I always just focused on this green gecko that he had on his cheekbone under his eye. It was a green gecko, and I liked that tattoo. I don't know; that's what I focused on. So he is telling me one day, he’s like, “Oh, the corrections officers are giving him a hard time. They think he's in a gang.” I'm like, “What gang? … You're not a Blood. You're not a Crip. You're not a Latin King. What gang do they think you're in?” And he's like, “The Aryan Nation.” And I'm like, “Why would they think you're in the Aryan Nation?” He said, “Because of my tattoo.” I'm like, “What tattoo?”
He had “WHITE PRIDE” tattooed across his brow. (Author reacts) But I swear, I never noticed it, because I focused on the gecko, there were lots of other tattoos, and he was nice to me. So I had no reason to think he was a white supremacist; but because he had “white pride” tattooed on his face, they thought he was an Aryan Nation guy. And I was just like, wow. So in that sense, the race didn't matter. We got along very well. So, it happens.

Issues with white clients are perhaps expected. However, many Defenders report how some Black clients distrust them and either demand or hire white lawyers. One Defender notes how “there are clients I've had who have said, ‘I want a white lawyer’ and ‘I want a white Jewish lawyer.’ I've had clients who think that I wouldn't have the relationship with the powers that be because I'm Black, that I wouldn't be as influential on their behalf because I'm not white….” Expresses another Defender: “I can also say on the flip side—and it's happened less—but my race has been a deterrent to some clients who are of the same race. There are a small percentage who I assume think they can do better and get better with someone of the opposite race, a Caucasian attorney…. I've actually had it said to me, not that directly, but in a respectful way; and I understood what they were expressing.” Adds another Defender: “I remember one particular client—and they were Black—that told my supervisor that they didn't think I was doing a good job and that they wanted to be represented by a white man. As a matter of fact, I’ve had numerous clients say that to me, like at least three that I can think of. I’ve had at least one say that they wanted a white Jewish man; and I said, ‘Well you can be represented by whomever you choose. I've been assigned your case, so if you'd like to go and hire a white Jewish attorney, then be my guest.’” One Defender shares this story:

I actually had a situation in arraignments where I talked to this gentleman in the back [where arrestees are detained], and he wasn't really giving me much to work with. But I knew that he was going to get out. This was not a bail situation; this person was going to get out. The case is called, and this guy gets on the record and says, “I don't want this house n***a representing me.” (Author reacts) Yeah.
Now listen, I can say all the right things now; in that moment, I felt like breaking that guy's jaw, man. I really did. I'm thinking, you don't really know me. You're looking at the jacket and the tie. You don't really know me, and you don't want to be talking about me like that. But I'm on the record, and there's professional decorum. The judge was horrified. I think the judge was totally embarrassed; the judge felt embarrassed for me. I wasn't embarrassed; I was just pissed. But the thing I thought about was, well good, because you’re going to get a white lawyer that doesn’t give a damn about you. I was your best option. You just messed that up, and that’s on you.

Given this dynamic, how might light-skinned Black public defenders fare? One Defender offers this answer:

It depends. The other day, I was on a zoom call with a client. My client didn't know I could hear him. It was on zoom, and there was a breakout room where I was going to call them offline to find out something. Because of COVID, we haven't been in person. So the first time they saw me was on the zoom call, and then I heard my client tell his girlfriend, “Oh, I'm supposed to go to a breakout room to talk to that white lady.” (Author reacts) All right. I know I'm light-skinned and everything, but….
So it largely depends on what they think I am. I think I'm interacting with everyone as an obvious Black person, but I've gotten enough feedback to know that everyone doesn't think that. I have to tell some people sometimes. Once I tell them, it seems to make a difference in the way we go back and forth, or even with their reaction; it takes a little bit of air out of whatever tension or formality there might have been before.

One Defender offers an explanation as to why Black clients may desire white attorneys:

The thing that I always say about being Black in America is that you can't win on any level. I think being a Black attorney in the public defense arena is an excellent example of that. There is I believe an inherent bias that Black attorneys are not as intelligent, not as capable, and not as informed on the law [as white attorneys]. I don't know if judges and ADAs are always aware that they think that or perpetuate that mindset. My experience is that that's always the starting point. Then once you've been practicing in a court setting for an extended period of time, then judges afford you what they would, in my opinion, afford white attorneys from the gate. They afford you the courtesy of acknowledging that you have skill and intelligence and know what you're doing, but they will have had to have seen you in action and make some positive assessment about your abilities. That's something that you deal with when it comes to judges, fellow attorneys, defense attorneys, and ADAs. Now that in itself is a big enough burden to carry.
Then in clients, we have been conditioned as people in this society that if it's Black, it's not good. So the same kinds of attitudes would permeate the minds of a lot of the clients. They might have a belief, and probably not incorrectly, that they would fare better if a white lawyer was representing them, especially clients that have been through the system a number of times and have an understanding of how Black lawyers are treated. I've had clients say to me, “Man, it would've been better if you were a Jewish dude. No disrespect though. No disrespect to you. I just think that the judge would hear your arguments better.” That's been said to me a number of times in my defense practice.
So I think that that in itself is indicative of what someone who is constantly in the system witnesses, perceives, and experiences. So as a Black attorney, you are getting from everybody this level of distrust, this underestimation of your abilities, this sort of belief that you're not as capable or not as good, or wouldn't be as respected. That is just one example of being a Black person in the United States, but it is demonstrative of our everyday experience in general….

A few more Defender answers:

Defender I think that to an extent, race plays a significant factor. For the most part, I think the majority of my clients, regardless of the fact that I'm a female, regardless of the fact that I'm Black, as long as I'm speaking with some kind of sense, they will be accepting of me and it's not a problem or anything like that. Then there are those who may have been through the system a number of times—what they call the “jailhouse lawyers”—and they think they know; so then when you're trying to explain something to them and they think it's B when it's A, then they feel that you don't know what you’re talking about. And I don't know if that's race or if they just think that they know stuff.
There are some clients that I have come across that are of opposite race, that are white or not Black, that I think that when they first saw me, they were kind of apprehensive about me being their lawyer. Some of them eventually came around, and there was some that were like, “I don't want you to be my lawyer.” There was at least one client I can remember recently that said he didn't want me to be his lawyer because I was Black. I said, “Well, either the judge will give you another lawyer or you have to go and retain a lawyer.” And I think in that case, he actually went out and got himself a lawyer. So he had the means to get a lawyer, so he shouldn't have been my client anyway.

Defender I had a young client one time. I was in juvenile court, the new system of court where, under the new law, you're still in family court if you are a minor charged with a crime …. I picked up a client charged with robbery. I spoke to him before I arraigned him. Because it was a different system, they bring the client up to the courtroom once the attorney is there; but I didn’t want to have the client come up to the courtroom without meeting me and me telling him who I was and giving him my card and interviewing him to get to know him. So I went down to talk to him—and the guard was really nice; there was a room, and he let me go into the room and left—and we talked maybe for about an hour. So we get arraigned and then we have a new court date; and I asked the judge not to put it on a certain date, because I wasn't going to be available. I don't remember why now, but it might have been a family thing.
The judge adjourned it to one date, and then adjourned it to the date when I wasn’t available while I was on vacation. So the mother's trying to call me, and she can't get ahold of me because I'm not in the office…. Then the judge realized it and changed it back to the date that we initially had, so I don't miss the court date.
But the mother has gone and hired a private lawyer who is an 18B. So I'm going to court, and I don't know this yet. I get to court, and she says, “I hired somebody else.” So I talked to the corrections officer. I found out that the case was called, and the new lawyer and the client were there. I said, “He hired somebody else. Did [the new lawyer] come down to see the kid?” The corrections offer said, “No.” “Did he meet the kid?” “No.” I don't think she would've done it to a white male attorney. I don't think she would've flipped on him like that, but she did it to me. And the thing that was kind of interesting is that the corrections officer told the mother, “You just made a big mistake.”
So these are the kind of things that, as a Black woman, we go through. There's no confidence in us because we’re not men, and we’re not white…. I understood the mother’s worry and her anxiety, but I also saw how she contributed to the situation. Whether she had choices or not, and she may not have had any real choices, she still contributed….

Defender I think it factors greatly when it comes to dealing with Black male clients only because they don't necessarily perceive me appropriately. So I've had a Black male client tell me that I don't know what it's like to be Black. I said, “What?! Okay. Let me give you some information that you're not necessarily entitled to,” and I ripped him a new one; and then I turned around and got him what he wanted and got his case dismissed right after arraignment, like during the arraignment process. And he was like, “Oh my God.” I said, “Yeah, don't ever fucking judge a book by its cover.”

How does your gender factor in how clients deal with you? Have you ever had to check a client for acting inappropriately because of your gender?

For the men amongst the Defenders, the general consensus is that gender generally advantages them and disadvantages their female colleagues. One Defender states: “I think being a male is definitely a little bit easier than being a female. I think males tend to be respected more. I've seen female colleagues have real issues with male clients; male clients don't want to be represented by a female attorney. That's never happened to me, and I realize that a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm a man.” Another Defender concurs: “I think it does factor in. I think they're more comfortable with me because I'm a man. I've actually had female colleagues give me cases either because the client expressly says, ‘I'd prefer a man,’ or they just don't respect a woman enough; they'll talk over my female colleagues and won’t believe whatever is coming out of their mouths. Then for some reason, with me as a man saying it, I guess it gives more credence and more value, even though it's the same thing coming out of my mouth.” One Defender gives this answer:

Unfortunately, it's more helpful to be a male than it is to be a woman in terms of how you, the lawyer, are addressed and how much respect you get. I hear horror stories from my women colleagues; man, they have it so bad. Most of the clients obviously are male, and we talk about mental illness and victims of circumstance and stuff like that; and some guys hit on my women colleagues. Yet my colleagues take it in stride. I’m like, “Oh my God, you didn't make a complaint? You didn't try and get off the case?” And they're like, “No, I mean, that's nothing; like I get hit on in almost every case sometimes.” They're just doing their job, and I'm like, man, this is so messed up.
I had a colleague interviewing a guy, and he was jerking off in the interview booth. This was not novel; I've heard this several times from female colleagues. This guy’s hands are under the table and he’s masturbating, and my colleague is like, “Hands on the table! I need to see your hands!” They take it in stride; and I'm like, “Are you going to get off the case?” They’re like, “No, I'm not going to get off.” Obviously, it's not fine for clients to do that; my woman colleagues are just so professional with the job that they're not going to let something like that stand in the way.

One Defender notes how his gender impacts his representation of clients of different genders:

I think it factors in significantly. Most of the clients that I represented were men, because we lock up more Black men than anything else in the United States, with “we” being the United States. So I shouldn't say “we.” The United States locks up more Black men than anything else.
As surmised from conversations I've had with colleagues that were women, the experiences that they had were different in positive and negative ways. But speaking to my personal experience, I surmised that my clients had more faith in my representing their interests or even telling the narrative of how they came to be in their position in a way that helps them better because I was a man.
I think that my gender played a major role. I don't know that I could really identify how it operated when I represented clients that were women. I'm sure if I thought about it; I could think of maybe examples of things that happened. But overall, I can't identify where I felt like my gender played a major part in representing women clients. In my time as a public defender, non-binary gender identity wasn't as readily discussed or identified; in sort of the systematic structure, it wasn't really identified on the paperwork. So, in terms of representing men and women, my gender played a role in representing male clients. I think they trusted me more and trusted my ability to represent them more because we were both of the same gender.

Women amongst the Defenders largely concur with the above sentiments. Defenders generally find that gender either doesn’t matter or advantages them in working with the female clients they have. One Defender states: “I don't really have issues with the women. I don't think my gender plays much of a role with women. They don't really seem to care.” Another Defender concurs: “I think the women are pretty cool; they don't really care….” One Defender offers this take: “Sometimes I get the sense that my female clients think that I'm judging them, and I have to explain to them: ‘No, that's not what I do. I don't have time to judge you. I'm here to like defend you.’ They often express things like, ‘Oh, you think I'm a bad person,’ or, ‘I know what I did was terrible. I know that you think what I did was terrible.’ I have to help them get past that really quickly, because that's not at all what I'm trying to convey or what I'm doing. I'm just trying to get the sense of what happened so I can defend them.”

With male clients, however, gender often plays a role. One Defender states: “I’ve definitely had a lot of sexist clients over the years. Not a ton, but I’ve had some. I’ve even had to get off a few cases just because some clients need an old white dude to tell them what to do, because they’re not going to ever listen to me because I’m a woman.” Adds another Defender: “They don't know that I'm able to make great arguments on their behalf. They don't know that I'm willing to go toe to toe all the time. They don't know, because I'm short and I'm a woman; and so they don't expect much. I've had a client say, ‘Wow, I didn't expect that from you’ after an argument in arraignments. So it’s interesting; sometimes some of them didn’t expect that I would go in the way I would go in, based on my gender.” A number of Defenders note how older men in particular would mistreat them. One Defender notes: “Older men tend to be more dismissive of me. Not all the time, but it would take a lot more for me to be able to get them to understand what was going on with their case or explain what I'm doing. A lot of times they try to talk over me and they wouldn't know what they were talking about, and it would just be frustrating.” Another Defender shares a similar experience: “If it's an older Black man that has had numerous contacts with the judicial system, the chief complaint is that I’m not old enough. So they’ll want a white Jewish male.”

One male amongst the Defenders tells this story:

I had to check a client who definitely was acting really inappropriately to a colleague of mine who was a Black woman. She did a very good job at trial and I was second seating her during the trial. She did a very good job with this guy’s tough drunk driving case and got the guy acquitted. During the entire trial, this guy was saying to me, “Oh, you did a great job.” And I'm like, “I didn't do shit. I just sat here.” I spoke to her about the case, and we certainly strategized. But I'm like, “It was her that got up there and cross examined the witnesses. She got up there and delivered the opening statement. She got up there and did a summation. She made all the legal arguments. Go thank her; don’t thank me!” After the acquittal, he’s turning to thank me, and I’m like, “Go thank her!” I thought it was really offensive that he did that; and she was rightfully offended by the whole thing and was just like “I'm just done with this….”

Many more female Defenders speak to male clients flirting with them. One Defender states: “Male clients sometimes get inappropriate. Like they try to flirt or say inappropriate things that they're trying to get over on me.” Another Defender answers: “I can say definitely being female and having had quite a few male clients—the majority, obviously—that there has been flirting, just the regular male-female stuff. I try to put that aside and just represent the client, but it's never been anything that made me feel uncomfortable. I realize it for what it is. That doesn't happen obviously in all of my cases; it’s a small percentage.” Another Defender states: “With the men, besides sometimes getting hit on or asked out for dates or something like that, they were fine.”

When male clients do proposition Defenders, the attorneys politely but firmly shut down those requests. One Defender states: “Sometimes they'll say demeaning things like ‘honey’ or some like that; so I’m like, ‘Look, I'm not your honey, I'm your attorney. We're not going to do that. This is a professional relationship.’” Another Defender states: “Yeah, when I have the occasional idiot that hits on me, it’s like, c’mon dude, we’re fighting for your liberty right now. Get it together.” Another Defender answers: “I've had clients say, ‘Oh, you're doing such a good job. I want to take you out to lunch.’ And I'm like, ‘I bring my lunch every day. No need.’ Or, I’ve had clients say, ‘Oh, you know I wanna thank you. We can go out to dinner.’ And I'm like, ‘Not interested.’” Another Defender states: “My clients ask me all the time: ‘Ms. [My Name], let me take you out to dinner. Let me take you out to lunch. I’ll treat you good. I see you ain't got no ring on your finger.’ And I’m like, dude, no. You’re here for domestic violence. (Author laughs) Like, I don’t think we should take our relationship to any next level.”

One Defender tells this story:

I had a client who was 16 when he got arrested. He got arrested right before Raise the Age went into effect; if he got arrested a month later, he would’ve gone to family court as a juvenile. I mainly talked to his mom about the case. Yes, he's my client, but he was 16 and he was fine with me talking to his mom. So mainly when I communicated, I spoke to the mom, and so mom had my number. And then he's like, “What's your number?” I give him my number because I'm like, “Alright cool. If you have any questions or anything let me know.” He promptly texted me and asks, “So what time you get off?” And I thought, little boy, if you don't get off my phone. (Author laughs) I replied and said, “Do you have a question about your case?” He’s like, “Nah, I'm just asking, like, what time you finish.” So then I said something else, and he’s like, “So you're not gonna answer my question?” So finally I said, “Don't make me block you.” He then says, “Alright Miss, I’ll stop. Chill, don't block me.”
Another client texted me one time; I think he was 17 or 18 at the time. He’s like, “Ms. [My Name], just send me a picture for my contacts.” I said, “No. I'm your lawyer, and that's inappropriate.” And then he says, “Oh shoot, my bad. Wrong person.” Really? (Author laughs) Really? OK….

Defenders generally do not take their male clients too seriously when they flirt or hit on them. One Defender states: “I think some of it is misplacing their gratitude and not knowing what to do with that sentiment towards a Black woman. I don't think it's, like, actual attraction.” They also describe inappropriate actions from male clients as “little things… nothing crazy.” Another Defender answers: “Yeah, a number of times; and sometimes it's not in a facetious or nasty way. Like sometimes, just because they're used to doing it in the street, our clients will be like, ‘Hey mommy’ or ‘Hey honey’ or ‘Hey baby.’ You may do that in the street, and it may be to you like a term of endearment, but I am in a professional capacity and I want to be addressed as such.” One Defender makes this observation:

I noticed a lot of my male clients especially are always dealing with women. If there's somebody coming to bat for them, it's a female family member, a mother, a girlfriend, a baby mom. So I think that a lot of the authority figures in their lives are women, which speaks to a bigger issue or a different issue of male representation in their household or in their lives. Sometimes it makes it easier for them to deal with me. I have a lot of clients who won't deal with men. My male social workers, my male clients refuse to talk to them. So I think sometimes my gender helped, and especially with the younger people that I have who are used to dealing with their mother or an aunt or a woman.

Another Defender provides the following explanation:

I do think that clients mistake the level of empathy and comfortability that I try to exhibit as an invitation in some ways. But a lot of people are so upset—I guess because I’m weird about the me-too movement and all that junk anyway—but a lot of people are weird about this dynamic. And I’m like, why don't you see this as like an intimate interpersonal relationship? Some people have these criminal cases going on, and their families and friends don’t know that they have these cases going on. The client is building a close relationship: I have his life and his freedom in my hands. He should trust and rely on me. He should know that I care about him and that I'm working hard for him. If he doesn’t know those things or feel those things after an entire year of us working on his case, then that’s a problem. At least that's how I view the relationship that my clients should have with me and that I should have with my clients. And I think sometimes that can be misconstrued because we are dealing with people who may not have ever had someone genuinely care about them or someone who may have genuinely cared about them but didn't know how to show it….
Like a lot of my clients will be like, “Ms. [My Name], you were the one who told me to go back to school. I went back to school. I got my GED. I did this. I did that.” And they are happy to come back and report these things. I have one client who we got into this program. and he's doing great. He now has some job now where he'd be traveling around the country. He'd be like, “Ms. [My Name], I wouldn't have had none of this stuff if it weren't for you. I'm gonna take you out to dinner, girl.” And I'll be like, “Look, I appreciate that. I'm glad that you're doing great. I'm thankful that you're thinking of me and that you appreciate the work that I did for you. But you don't have to do any of that.” … And like I said, I think it's just the fact that a lot of our clients don't have people who care about them, who care about whether they succeed or fail; and I'm happy to be that person for them and help them if I can.

While Defenders are largely unbothered by most efforts by male clients to flirt, the flirting goes too far in rare occasions. One Defender recalls:

I actually got off a case, and it got scary at one point because this client started exhibiting schizophrenia; and it was two or three years that he was coming to the office claiming that I was his wife and I had his kids. That was scary. He was young, and he had a horrible upbringing. The only person he really ultimately had was me, his attorney…. We resolved his case, but then he developed this delusion that now I'm his wife and I've had his kids. He kept coming to the office; he constantly called the office…. It got to a point where I had to inform my supervisors so that, when he would get rearrested, we had to make sure that I wasn’t in court when he appeared and that none of my colleagues picked up his cases. It was a lot. It got really scary.

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