Chapter 10 - The Pay

Defenders discuss the financial realities of public defense.

How comfortably do you live in New York City on a public defender salary?

The majority of Defenders report that living in New York City on a public defender salary is difficult. Older Defenders struggled to stay afloat. One Defender states: “Not very. I was lucky enough to have an apartment for $500 a month in the year I started on 13th street between first and second avenue in New York, and I held on to that apartment for 13 years. $500; and if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have been able to afford it when I started working as a public defender. I earned I think $25,000. That's outrageous, even in the year I started.” Another Defender shares similar sentiments: “I paid my rent, and I didn't have much left. There were times when my lights got turned off; and I used to have to tell my cat, ‘I'll get paid tomorrow, and you'll be eating tomorrow.’ (Laughter) It was hard. I mean, it's not like I didn't go out sometimes and I couldn't do things with my friends, but it was really, really hard. And New York City is expensive…. I think I did pretty well, and I negotiated my rent and kept them from raising it. But we didn't make any money.”

Times didn’t get much better for newer Defenders. One Defender states: “I was broke. I was broke.” Another Defender responds: “I think I’d rather be poor. I mean, because I’m not poor enough to qualify for anything decent, and I’m too poor to qualify for anything decent. So I basically am a glorified pauper. I don’t understand….” Adds another Defender: “I lived in a family member’s basement for like two years. I paid rent, and I couldn't really afford much more than that….” Yet another Defender answers: “Not comfortably at all. I’m living check to check.” Some Defenders moved out of New York City to keep costs down. One Defender gives this answer: “I lived so comfortably that I had to move to Long Island, so my money would go farther.” Another Defender did the same: “I don't live in New York City because I'm a public defender. I live on Long Island where things are a little bit cheaper. If I did, it would be very difficult to live in New York City on our salary. I don't think our salary's horrible; but I think for the amount of work we do, we deserve to get paid a little bit more….”

Several Defenders note how unfair it is that public defenders get paid so little. One Defender remarks: “I can always get food. But compared to other attorneys in New York City, it's not good based off the stress and the things that we deal with. It's just horrible how the city pays us, especially considering how they pay the police and how much more private attorneys make for legal services. We’re way underpaid.” Another Defender concurs: “Not that comfortably, and I make more than other critical team members such as our investigators. I don't really understand how people can live in New York City on the salaries that I’ve seen. It’s weird because, isn’t this New York City, one of the richest cities in the country, if not the richest? And yet we pay people so poorly. It doesn't have to be that way.”

Some Defenders relied on family to help stay financially afloat. Some Defenders turned to their parents. One Defender notes: “I'm not representative of most people. Luckily for me, I … still live at home while I save up for a house. So I don't have to worry about rent and stuff like that…. My parents are kind of like, ‘That's the whole point of sending your kids to get a good education and this and that, so that they can have a head start in life. And why are you going to go pay somebody else to live with them when you can just stay here and save your money?’” Adds another Defender: “If my parents didn't own a brownstone and I wasn't able to live there rent-free, it would not have worked so well. And even with that, I still wasn't able to pay off my loans. It was fucking horrible.”

For other Defenders, being married helps allay some of the financial stress. One Defender states: “I don't live on a public defender salary. I have a husband who has a salary, and we have two salaries. That's how we live. I don't know how people live on one public defender's salary, unless they’re living in a single apartment by themselves and never ordering out….” Another Defender answers: “I mean, I was married the whole time I did it, so we had two incomes. But if I had had one income, just [my public defender] salary… I think it's so offensive. I think it's so offensive how little public defenders in New York get paid, and I don't understand how you're supposed to pay for your loans and pay for your living and save money. And I think it's disgusting…. I got a $60,000 pay increase from when I left public defense for my new legal job. Good for me that I'm getting paid more, but really it's disgusting that I was getting paid so little.”

Instead of despairing, some Defenders put things in perspective and feel fortunate to do the work despite the low salary. One Defender gives this answer: “You know, I always consider myself blessed and fortunate, because I know that wherever I am in the spectrum of things, there are a lot of people who are worse than me. I'm probably not the best person to ask that question because I would do this job for free. I would. I love being a public defender. I love helping my people. So with money, when you're doing something that you actually love and that you always wanted to do and thought about doing as a kid, you're not even thinking about that.” Adds another Defender: “Honestly, I always made more than my clients, and I never really felt comfortable complaining in general about my salary. I always felt very blessed. I had health insurance. I had a secure job. I was doing what I loved. Even at the lower end of my salary, I made more than most families of four in the world in our country, more or less in the world. So I always felt very blessed in that sense.”

Some Defenders also recognize that their salaries, while meager as compared to the salaries of other attorneys, are still significantly more than they had ever made prior. One Defender notes: “Yeah, I think I would say I'm comfortable. I'm OK. What I want to keep in mind is that, when I got my first job offer and told my parents what the offer was, my dad asked me, ‘Do you realize how long it took me to work to actually get up to that amount?’ Without question, my dad works a million times harder than I. I started thinking about it and realizing the amazing privilege that I have to be working in New York City and making a decent amount. Seeing where my family comes from, seeing the struggle that my parents had to go through, I definitely feel a level of relative comfort.” Another Defender concurs: “In terms of my comfort level, it's hard to say because everything I made was always more than I had ever made before…. So that was always comfortable. My situation was probably more comfortable than a lot of other people, because I had rental income and my rent. Then I had two cousins move in with me, and then my mortgage… So, I've always felt relatively comfortable. I've never felt desperate or anything.”

A minority of Defenders note living comfortably on just a public defender salary. One Defender states: “I believe I live quite comfortably. When I first started working as a public defender, I already had an apartment that was a co-op that I had purchased. My maintenance was very small, so I was able to live comfortably and I lived in Harlem. As I got older, I moved to the Bronx and then Westchester. I'm comfortable, but I realize I am the ‘exception.’ I think I may be the Black exception.” Another Defender answers: “Well, I live below my means. I have done well. I know that a lot of people have not, especially with student loans. I don't have any, because I got loan forgiveness for being a public defender…. When I moved out of my mom's house, I moved in with two roommates. So that kept my living expenses pretty low. Then when I moved back to [where I live now], I was able to find a very affordable apartment, rent-stabilized. My rent has not gone up much over the time I've been here, so I've been comfortable and I've been blessed. It is awesome….” Another Defender provides this response:

I live comfortably. I live comfortably, but I also live very differently than my colleagues. I chose to not spend an exorbitant amount of money on rent. So I lived in a neighborhood that made everyone be like, what are you doing living there? But it allowed me to save, and it allowed me to eventually travel…. I think often, people I work with compare our pay to the pay of corporate attorneys; and I never thought that way. With my mindset, I knew and understood that doing public defense or social justice lawyering was not-for-profit work; so I never compared what my pay would be to that of a corporate attorney. I chose different things. I didn't live in Manhattan and I didn't live in parts of Brooklyn. I lived in the South Bronx. I lived in an area where my rent was very reasonable. So that was the tradeoff.

A few more responses:

Defender It was terrible. I mean, it was definitely worse then, than it is now. We didn't get raises for a long time; I felt like maybe during my first three years, we didn't get a raise. We had to start pushing for it…. It was crazy; it wasn't an easy space to navigate. Financially for me, I think a lot of white public defenders seemed to have trust funds and resources and husbands and whatever else. I didn't have any of that; I had me, my apartment and my salary.

Defender Not comfortable, to say the least. We live paycheck to paycheck; and when you say that to people, being an attorney and all, people ask, “How are you an attorney and you're living paycheck to paycheck?” I don't think people understand how little public defenders get paid, especially in New York City. So it's very, very difficult to balance that. And to be real, as a public defender, your time is very important. We need time to decompress and chill out, whether that be to go and get a massage or whatever you like to do, whatever you enjoy. You have to really map that out as to when you're going to do that. When you're going to go out on the weekend and chill out and relax, or hang with friends or family, you have to really map that out because you have to fit that into your paycheck and your salary. It's all very difficult to do, especially here in New York City. I think that public defenders do live a little more comfortably in southern states; but in New York, it's very, very difficult to maintain.

Defender I mean, it was a challenge. I'll give you this example without saying more: for most of the time that I was a public defender, except maybe for the last two or three years—my bank is a bank that allows me to overdraft my checking account—every pay period I had to overdraft for $500. So that's how I lived as a public defender for years and years and years. I got a paycheck, paid my bills, maybe got some groceries and whatever, but I never had enough money to cover everything. So I would always have to overdraft. They would let me go to an ATM, put my card in and take out the $500. (Author reacts) Then they will of course charge me the next check that hit and it will be short $535. But I lived like that for years. So that should tell you right there: it wasn't enough money.

Defender It's not like I make that much more as a supervisor. Honestly, the jump [in pay] is not that significant. I mean, it's New York City. New York City is hard. New York City is expensive. I feel like our colleagues who live in really nice areas in New York City are living with roommates; and I'm a little too old to live with their roommates. (Author laughs) In other cities, I have friends and colleagues of mine who, for $200,000, have a house with a yard and a driveway and a good school district. And I was like, do you know what $200,000 gets you in New York City?!

Defender I remember when I started [as a public defender], and I was so excited to get the job because I really didn't think I was going to get the job, and I did. I wasn't told how much I was going to make; and I almost felt bad asking, because it felt like, oh my God, I'm so lucky to have this job. How dare I even ask what my salary is? But then I was trying to get an apartment; and of course they wanted to know what my salary would be. And I answered, “Yeah, great question. Let me go see if I can find what my salary's going to be.” I remember at that time, my starting salary I believe was $46,000. Which was, you know, fine; I didn't expect to be killing it. It wasn't like private law; [it was not a] law firm type salary.

But I had to make some sacrifices just in terms of how I was living, you know? So I definitely started out living with multiple roommates and eating very modestly for dinner, trying to pay back my student loans and all of that. It was tough. It was definitely a challenge. As I progressed and went from being a law graduate to being barred, and then over the years of working in public defense, [my salary] sort of gradually increased….

Defender Until this month, actually, I had a roommate. I would say I lived decently. Is it sometimes still a struggle? Yes. Would I still have difficulty comfortably purchasing a home? Whether it's an apartment, a standalone home, a smaller home, or a larger home, I would have trouble doing that. I'm a single person on a public defender salary in New York City. If I wanted to have children, that would be difficult.

Back to the point on housing, my roommate moved out this month; and so now it's going to be just myself. And it is a source of stress, in terms of me re-budgeting and trying to figure out how to make this new life work out normally…. I think there is a level of comfort there; I'd be lying if I would say I have no comfort. But it's a very precarious comfort, because if anything changes, that comfort will change a good deal. So with my roommate moving out, that now cuts how much I'm able to save monthly in almost half. So that's a big difference in comfort. If any emergencies happen, your girl is a little shook. So there is a level of comfort. There is a level of privilege. There is a level of all of those things; but it's a very precarious one.

How big of a role do you think salary plays in why Black people are underrepresented in public defense?

The majority of Defenders think that salary plays a major role in why African Americans are underrepresented in public defense. Part of the reason aspiring Black attorneys don’t turn to public defense is rooted in America’s history of anti-Black oppression. One Defender explains: “I think it’s a huge part of the reason. I think that white people have a 400-year advantage on us when it comes to being financially secure. A lot of Black people don’t have the luxury of having come from money or, if you’re not making a lot of money, being able to call your parents and say, ‘Hey, I need help with this bill this month. Can you help me?’ So, we have to make money to support ourselves and to support our families, and that’s a big reason not to go into public defense. We don’t have the luxury.” Concurs another Defender: “I think it plays a big role. I really do. I know my family tried to really convince me to pick some area of law where I was going to make more money, and I understand why they did that. Generationally, our family had no money; and I was going to be one of the only post-graduate persons that had a job, like a good job. So I get it….”

For many Defenders, families look to them for support. One Defender notes how “for a lot of us, we're carrying the weight of the hope of the family. We're carrying the weight of everyone looking to us to pull the family out of whatever financial standing they are in. And even if you're coming from a middle-class background, you are still seen as the beacon to rise to the next level. Not-for-profit work doesn't pay a lot. So it's going to be harder to convince especially first-generation attorneys—the ones to whom everyone's looking—to take on this type of work.” Another Defender states: “A huge role. I think that a lot of Black people don't even consider public defense…. I think that there's a lot of people who wouldn't even think about it, who wouldn't even go to it, because they're just like, ‘I can't make that little bit of money.’ … So I think it's huge because we've got so many other things that we are doing. We have family we're supporting; we're trying to dig ourselves out of debt; we’re trying to make a way for the next generation, if we are able to even have that as an opportunity; and then we have family members who need support as well. It's just not possible.”

Aside from helping their existing families, Defenders find that public defenders struggle to have families of their own. One Defender states: “I think a lot of Black males especially leave because, if they want to have families and to be a breadwinner for their families, they need to make more money than what's available in public defense ….” Another Defender notes: “The stress is enormous. So at some point, if you want a family, you can't really have a family on a public defender's salary. So your spouse has to make way more money than you for that to even be a possibility.”

Moreover, Defenders note the desire of Black public defenders to achieve a modicum of financial stability. One Defender responds: “A big role. When I think about my closest friends from law school, half of us went to the public sector and half of us went to big law. My friends who went to big law, they own property. They have houses, they have condos. They are financially better off than I am.” Adds another Defender: “It plays a role. My normal friends who I've grown up with are very surprised at how little I make. There are now some members of my family that are just high school graduates now working for the city; and they are living a lot more freely than I am. So it definitely does play a role in determining whether they want to do this public defender work, especially in New York, because they're like, oh, we have to do what?! And then we get paid what?! …. Some of my closest friends are like, ‘You’re crazy. You went to law school for three years to take this little salary here?’”

A minority of Defenders think salary plays less of a role in African American underrepresentation in public defense. One Defender states: “I don't think it's so much the salary. I think it's the culture. I think the culture is very micro-aggressive. I think the culture is not representative of the population that it serves. I think the executives and the directors of these public defender offices are not representative of the people, which is typical with not-for-profits….” Another Defender agrees: “I think salary plays some role; but I know the Black lawyers that I met at [my public defender office] were committed to the work, so they made the salary work for them. I think there were other factors within the organization—organizational factors—that often contributed to people leaving. Salary contributed; but I don't think it was the number one reason. I think that the Black folks that I know that came to this work came to it with the understanding that it was public interest work; and a lot of them came to it having never lived the upper middle class or rich lifestyle. So they were able to navigate financially.” One Defender offers this take:

I've thought about this, and I think that it plays a substantial role; but I don't think that's the most significant factor for why Black people are underrepresented in public defense. I think there's a lot of public interest jobs that Black people gravitate towards more than public defense. I think salary is probably 30% of the reason Black people don't stay in public defense. As Black people, usually we don't have family money. A lot of times, we're probably the first lawyers in our family, and we want to make money.

But I also think the reason that a lot of Black people are not public defenders is because of the lack of respect and the lack of dignity that they receive from the people in court and from society in general. For a lot of people of color, I think it is hard for them to deal with going to court and being disrespected. From what I’ve felt and from what I've seen, I think that is the biggest reason why Black people are underrepresented in public defense. You're a Black person, you go to law school, and you're a part of a respected profession. Then you go to court and think you're doing something that's noble and dignified, and it feels anything but that. You know that what you're doing is right and dignified and noble, but everyone else is telling you that it's not. I think that psychologically could do something to a person, especially a person of color.

So I think the salary is a big reason, but I think that piece of Black people being disrespected and undignified is probably a bigger reason why Black people are underrepresented in public defense. I think it takes a strong person to stick with it.

A couple more Defender answers:

Defender I think it plays a huge role. I can only speak from my experience: I was the first in my family to go to law school. I was very open with both my siblings and cousins about how much this was costing me. I was very honest. I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this. I'm going to have to fake my death. Me and Tupac. (Author laughs) Right? And then to go to public defense and also be very honest about that salary as well. My family said, “Maybe you should go somewhere or go private or do something to pay this back.”

I think minorities are very concerned about debt, as they should be, as everyone should be. But I think it plays in this idea that you don't want to take on all of this and then not be able to live. So I think that plays a huge role in it. There was actually one prosecutor in [the borough I practiced in], African American gentleman. He said, “I became a prosecutor so I could pay off my debt.” Like, that was his math. He said, “They get paid more; I can do well in this system.” And honestly, he did; of all of the prosecutors I dealt with, he was the most reasonable. He was the most open to mitigation and plea negotiation. He was one of the best. But a significant part of his math of joining the DA's office was that they get paid more and he could get out of debt quicker.

Defender Well, I think it plays a big role, because I know I had student loans and I know a lot of people have student loans. When I interview candidates for jobs, I noticed that candidates of color don't always have the same internships and the college internship experiences that white students have, because they have to work…. It hurts their employment opportunities. In these meetings, I'll say, “This person's interested; but because of economic reasons, he couldn't do internships. He can't not work. He cannot not get paid.” [Our office] doesn't pay interns. They don't pay summer interns. So Black folks can't do that for the most part now….

Then the salaries are low. They were low when I started, but they're still low. They're still too low. So what are you going to do? Where are you going to live? How far do you have to travel? You can't even get a job because you don't have the requisite experience or you don't look like you're interested; and then if you're lucky enough to get past all that, it takes a few years to be able to say that you are kind of making a living, because you're not making a living at first. It's like a stipend, you know?

I think that a living salary would be helpful…. We need people of color in this profession because of who is being arrested. But with this salary, you can't pay rent. You can't pay student loans. You can’t pay even Queens rent or Bronx rent on a public defender salary. You probably have to live 20 people in an apartment, with 25 roommates.

And a lot of white people have other money, or their spouses have money. This is just their pocket money, you know?

Why do you think public defenders are not well compensated?

The vast majority of Defender responses to this question ultimately boils down to the same message: society cares not about poor nonwhite clients or the attorneys that represent them. A sampling of some of the shorter responses: “Because people don't believe in our work. They don't see an issue with poor and minority people going to jail. It’s not that big of a deal.” “I think because they don't value what we do. They value the DA’s office way more, which is why they get paid way more money than we do.” “People don’t care about our clients.” “Because the job is not valued. We’re defending ‘criminals,’ so no one cares.” “Because nobody cares about our clients, that’s why. Why pay people a ton of money to represent people that nobody cares about?” “Because nobody cares about the criminal justice system. No, I'm going to lie. I'm sorry. Nobody cares about the defendants in the criminal justice system.” “Because I don't think that their work is appreciated, and I don't think that it's respected.” “I think because people hate our clients.” “Because who cares about criminals or criminals’ lawyers? Nobody! We represent criminals. We're the worst kind of lawyer there is….”

A few more responses:

Defender I think it's because, like I said a while back, there's no presumption of innocence. Criminal law is considered the lowest that you [can] go, and people are not interested in funding the representation of people charged with crimes. Because if there was a presumption of innocence, do you know how many people would be running to fund criminal justice? If all the people that were being arrested in New York were white, do you know how that system would change? Do you know how much funding they would get? But people feel that we deal with the dregs of society, and that's so unfair. That is so disrespectful and so unfair….

But even the people that are in the profession have the same attitude, that criminal law is kind of the lowest thing you could do…. So I don't think we get funded because there's no real importance given to that. That's why the prosecutor’s office has historically got more money than the defense: it's more important to prosecute, and the city [therefore] feels it must make that organization stronger than the defense.

Defender Because no one thinks that this is a real job or that it's a job worth having. I mean, you look at every popular media, [the perception is that] public defenders are a joke. Even though I am very happy with the Derek Chauvin verdict, being on Twitter and seeing all of the comments about his attorney [is something]: “How could somebody represent him?” “Maybe his lawyers should do some of the jail time.” There's a fundamental misunderstanding about what we do, so it's easy for the government to pay us less. You're just as bad as the people you're representing. We don't need you in this system.

Defender No one cares about us. We’re the bottom of the barrel. We represent “criminals.” We get people off on a technicality, which is the Constitution. People think we represent the scums, the dregs of society. I feel like people think defense attorneys lie. Like, why are we the liars? Like the prosecutors and the cops are; I don't know why we are branded as such.

I think people just have such a low opinion of us. I really do think they have it of defense attorneys generally, and then public defenders are just one step below. They think all of our clients are definitely career criminals because they can't afford anybody.

Defender Because they're not valued. They represent poor Black and Brown people, the folks that [white] people really don't care about. They're expendable…. They're presumed guilty. They don't have any political power. They don't have any economic power. So why are we going to compensate people for representing them? They don't see us as doing meaningful work.

Defender I think because the job is not respected. It's not thought of as truly being important, and the population that we serve is considered to be the dregs of society. They're not the dregs because they're accused criminals; they're the dregs because they're poor and America doesn't care about them. It's a capitalist society. Poor people don't matter. You know what I'm saying? They put public defenders in place to say that they sort of support these constitutional ideals; but as a capitalist society, America doesn't care about poor people. So I think there's a disdain for the poor, and it's something that's carried over to those that represent and defend the poor. That's why it isn't thought of something that should be duly compensated.

Defender Our work is not valued, right? I mean, if we were seen as essential and as valuable to protecting the rights of the citizens of the state of New York—because that's what we're doing; people who are arrested and charged with crimes are citizens of this state as well—we would be compensated on par with the district attorney's office. And [we’re] trying to get there; pay parity is something [our office] is advocating for, and I appreciate them doing that. But society doesn't see the value in our work.

I have family members that even come and visit me. They come to court with me, and I'll be like, “Oh, I have to look for parking. I gotta pay for parking.” And they're like, “You can't just park in front of the courthouse?” I'm like, “We don't get plaques. We don't get no respect around here. Nobody cares about our parking dilemmas as defense attorneys.”

It's interesting that people think we should have more benefits and resources. We don't have a pension. DAs get pensions. We don't have a pension as public defenders. That would be very valuable to us and our families, right? But we're not valued in the same way.

Defender Because our fat is as the top. If the D.C. public defender office can pay their public defenders well, so can all the other public defenders. I think there’s a lot of waste. I think that the inability to streamline, and the inability to become technologically savvy so we can streamline the process, is [clear].

Defender I'm sure it's a lot of things; but I think for the most part, we're not a popular group. We're the organization that sues the city and sues the state. The population we represent is not a voting population. They're not a great voting bloc. And there is this perception that it's bad politically to be weak or soft on crime.

Do you have student loans? How is life like managing those student loans?

Almost every Defender to answer this question either had or has student loans. One Defender notes: “I had crazy, crazy student loans, and loan repayment assistance…. Eventually I went and worked at a law firm and paid off my student loans. It was terrible…. I could never pay my loans and my electricity bill in the same month. And ultimately when I did pay back my student loans, they had almost doubled from late fees and interest. I don't know what the numbers are exactly, but it was crazy how much I was paying back and just not being able to regularly pay them, when I was a public defender.” Another Defender states: “It sucked. I was lucky. I was able to consolidate them under a really good rate that I locked in, and I did that really early. It wasn't overwhelming; it wasn't like I was paying three-fourths of my salary to student loans and living on one-fourth of it. But it was still a lot. I heard that there are some people who are like that, who spend most of their salaries on their loans. I had a friend from law school who had a goal to pay off all her loans in five years. She had a roommate. She didn't go out. She didn't do anything like that. But she paid off all her loans. (Author reacts) I mean, no smartphone; she had a flip phone. She did the barebones basics; she ate ramen noodles. But after those five years she was good.”

Defenders generally report having insanely high student loans:

Defender I owe more in student loans than I owe on my mortgage on my house. (Author reacts) Yes, okay? Yes, that’s how real it is. Yes, I have student loans, absolutely I do. I am thankful I have a family; I mean, I can barely afford to pay what I'm paying now, but then I talk to some of my colleagues who are single, and they have to pay maybe like $100 more per month than me. I think about what my life would be like without them; but I could see public student loan forgiveness at the end of the light, so I'm going to hang on. I'm just going to hang on.

Defender I do have student loans, about $350,000 worth of student loans. (Author reacts) Yeah, it's only law school, because I did my masters and undergraduate with scholarships having paid for that. So it’s just law school, and that’s about $350,000. And how do I live? I do income-based repayment. I have to make 120 payments and then I get loan forgiveness. Before I had my child, my monthly student loan payment based on income-based loan repayment was $499 a month on my salary. That's a chunk of change. Since I've had my child now, it's going to be 426 dollars a month. And then with the pandemic, we haven't had to pay this past year.

Defender Horrible. Yes. I have student loans. I still have student loans. It's bad. I mean, it's not easy to manage. I took a second job teaching because I got married and wanted to have a supplemental income. Every defender's office and everybody works differently, but I worked comps and comps and comps¹ to cash them out because my salary did not supplement my income well enough. It was not enough to maintain my bills and my student loans. Many people teach on the side or work crazy amounts of comp shifts to get the money, because just that salary alone is not enough.

Defender I have gotten better. Student loans are my Albatross. I could go on a five-hour diatribe about how much I hate them. There is no Amazon return for this degree. (Author laughs) Sometimes I want to tell the school to come pick it up; y'all can have it, just give me my money back or give me a partial refund. It's very difficult even with income-based repayment. We do qualify for programs; we qualify for student loan forgiveness, and we qualify for the income-driven, income-base repayments. We're still talking about $400, $500, $600, give or take between $400 and $600 [monthly] when you start out, depending on what your debt load is. And that's a lot of money when you're talking about thousands of dollars in rent.

Defender Oh, child. I have about $300,000 in student loans. (Author reacts) Yes. So, yeah, life is that; but I'm on all of the little assistance programs that I think of, so my payments are low. Luckily with COVID, we've had like almost 10 months of not paying them. I'm also getting close to my 10-year mark of loan forgiveness. I kind of knew and assumed the risks; but looking back, would I have taken out so many loans? No; I would've went to a school that I can afford, or a school where I didn't need to take out many loans.

Defender I have a shit ton of loans. The way that I manage them is that I don't pay them in the summertime because I believe that the summers are mine. (Author laughs) I need to live at some point; if I'm going to live in this small shitty-ass apartment, and if I'm going to work my ass off every single week and work night court and weekend court and all types of random assignments, y’all loan providers ain't getting my money in the summertime. I'm going to live my life and do whatever I'm going to do, and I'll start paying y’all motherfuckers back in September. That's just how it goes….

I don't even look at my student loans, because they are depressing. Like, when I'm out of my income driven repayment plan, I laugh…. I remember when I graduated from law school, and they sent me what my payment was without a payment plan. I laughed because I was like, bro, my monthly payment is more than my paycheck. My monthly payment was going to be more than half my salary for the month. I was like, that’s crazy. Who’s paying that? I can’t pay that.

Defender I mean, I have student loans. I have a crap load of student loans. I had about $30,000 in undergrad debt and a crap load more when I went to law school, even though I did get some money…. I'm lucky in that I have a partner who does very well for herself financially, so she can offset some of the luxuries we provide for our children as opposed to ourselves; but it's hard. I don't know how single people do it, because it's extremely difficult to manage the student loans and manage all of our other expenses ….

Having student loans is rough. If I could do it all over again, if I could talk to my younger self knowing what I know now, I would’ve really done things differently, because then I feel like you just have so much financial freedom being debt free….

Defender I do have student loans, and it has been very rocky, straight up. There was, like, a very brief period where I was not paying my student loans, and that was not because of COVID; it was not during that time. This was pre-COVID, and it was because I could not afford to pay my student loans; even the income-based payment was too high. I just couldn't do it. So it was like, I could sacrifice things in my life or I could live. I decided to live, and so there was a period when I didn't pay them, and it really screwed me up. It screwed me up in terms of doing the 10-year public interest loan forgiveness. It also screwed me up in terms of my credit, which I had to work back from….

So yeah, I had a hard time. I had a really hard time.

Some Defenders either owe less money or have manageable student loan payments:

Defender I do have student loan. For me it's not that bad, but that's because I have a good loan repayment program through the school I went to. I’m also planning to get my loans discharged through PSLF, but it seems like conservative politicians are trying to undermine that program even though it was first created under Republican President George W. Bush. But for that, it would be a whole different situation…. I have friends who only had access to private student loans, some of whom are public defenders as well, and one of my friends told me that her student loan payment is like $2,000 a month! Oh my gosh! A $2000 monthly payment, and you’re only pulling in $4000 or so after taxes every month! And I know other people who are paying $1000 a month. That's so much money, and the interest rates are so high that I don't even know how they're all paying.

Defender I do have student loans. Student loans take a big chunk of money. It's not beyond what I make, and I haven't had the problem of student loans consuming all of my money. I haven't gone into default. Even when I went through a period of unemployment post-graduation, my payments got deferred. I'm not saying it's not an issue. Student loans are a huge burden. But, they haven't crippled me in the way that I've seen and heard that they've crippled other people.

I've just resigned myself to accept it. I’m hoping that this public service loan forgiveness kicks in, but I’m not banking on that. I'm just going to be paying student loans for the rest of my life. Just tuck that into the corner of my mind. Keep on moving because no use stressing over it.

Defender I do have student loans. They weren't substantial. I didn't take out student loans in college, because I had scholarships throughout college. I also had scholarships throughout law school. So, I really did not have to take out a loan; but because I wanted to be “BALLIN’,” I took out a loan. (Laughter) (Author reacts) I know! Every time I tell this story, my colleagues are like, “Why do you keep on telling this story? You should not tell this story.”

But anyway, my loans were like around $30,000; but with forbearance and stuff, I think now it's close to $50,000. But I know a lot of people dealing with loan payments that are close to a thousand dollars a month; my loan payment is like $250. So it's manageable.

Defender I do have student loans; and unlike a lot of my younger colleagues, I have private and federal loans. When I was in law school, students weren't at the time allowed to borrow the full amount from the federal government. There was a cap, and the remainder had to be private loans. So I have a combination of private and federal loans.

I manage. I budgeted very early on. Knowing I was going to have student loans, I stayed in the apartment that I'm currently still residing in, because I was not willing to either get a roommate or to take on a much more expensive apartment to live in these “desired neighborhoods.” I put “desired” in quotation marks because oddly enough, a lot of the undesirable neighborhoods are becoming some of the most expensive neighborhoods. So it's interesting to watch the gentrification happen.

So yeah, I'm able to budget. I pay my loans. I pay actually I think more than some of my colleagues who went to law school after me….

FN 1: Attorneys earn either additional compensation or additional vacation days when they work night arraignment shifts and weekend arraignment shifts. These extra shifts are called “comp shifts” or “comps.”

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